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Post by UrbanBlue on Feb 13, 2009 4:09:51 GMT -5
How should we handle Invention?
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Post by Neros on Feb 13, 2009 5:09:02 GMT -5
In my opinion, as its written in the original book.. Offcourse, it might need some tweaking depending on what rules we create for the core mechanics.. But so fare, I've had no problems with this Action.. Its simple compared to what this action actually lets you do, which is to create more or less any effect you want..
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 6:16:08 GMT -5
Yeah, once you actually realize what to do, it's a snap to do just about anything.
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Post by Neros on Feb 13, 2009 6:58:17 GMT -5
I once calculated how long it would take Hank Pym to create Ultron with no problem.. And when my players want to make something, theres still no problems..
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 13, 2009 7:07:18 GMT -5
Invention can take a while to get a hold on... but yeah, once you get it, its super easy.
HOWEVER... personally I'd like to see it actually do what Invention does in the comics. Its just too darned good as it exists now, and nobody in comics just invents and invents and invents until they've obtained ultimate power over the universe. People invent for specific story element reasons, or as I like to call it... "counter-inventing." I think the rules should reflect that, rather than just letting an Invention character take a massive jump in power every 8 - 20 days.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 9:04:39 GMT -5
For a while now I've had an idea for Inventing that I've never really put in a formal text block - mostly because I was afraid of how long it would take to playtest it and balance the costs and mechanic. But the basic concept is easy enough.
For distinction I call it "Gadgetry", at least in my brain. ^__^ In essence it allows you to pull some useful gadget out of your laboratory or workshop for use that issue. You may also have "just the thing!" for a certain problem, as so many Inventing characters in the comics do.
In practice, you would get a certain number of Creation stones (the exact number based on your AN) each issue that you can spend on an item - or items - which you can use for the rest of the issue. Basically, it lets you choose which power you want for the issue, and the more knowledge you have about what you're facing, the better.
There should be the ability to put Creation stones aside (ie, not spent right away at the start of the issue) so that if necessary you can return to your lab/workshop and throw something together last minute, or finish "just the thing!" with a little extra work (provided this is possible in the storyline! If you don't have some time and access to your workshop, you're SOL.)
At the end of the issue, your gadgets have run out of power, need to be calibrated or whatever it is that explains why you don't necessarily have them at your disposal during the next issue (unless you spend your next batch of creation stones on them again, which should come at a small discount).
I'd like there to be an inexpensive option for true "inventing", which creates items to the benefit of the storyline for free: someone had to make Cyclops' ruby visor, Surge's gauntlets, and so on. Forge and Reed Richards have this for sure, although perhaps it should be a standard feature. *shrug*
The basic mechanic can be quite similar to the 1.0 inventing, counting a number of factors such as duration, whether you've made something like it before, stones of effect, advantages and disadvantages, etc. In total, whatever it is you're able to create should be a little weaker than what you might get if you just bought another power (a laser pistol you invent shouldn't be as strong as a force blast you could just have purchased instead of Gadgetry) but the benefit is versatility. If you discover half-way through an issue that that really brutally strong bad guy you fought to a stalemate is weak to cold attacks, just take a trip to your lab and finish off that new wrist-mounted Ice Cannon. That'll learn that brute to mess with a man of SCIENCE!
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 13, 2009 10:20:00 GMT -5
Might not be the solution, but what about the mechanics for Rushed inventing I posten awhile back? Isent that what they basicly do when they invent something in a very short time? Rush it abit so that the new the arm which a teammate have lost can be replaced before the Big Mean Mastermind can take over the city... Or something similar..
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 10:48:43 GMT -5
The problem with the old Inventing is that it's an Action that begets other Actions. That's just a horrible idea in principle.
I think we should move forward by completely ditching the old way. I'll work up a mechanic for you guys to pick apart in a while. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 12:16:00 GMT -5
So, it's still point form, not properly balanced, and generally needs some extra ideas, but this is basically what I have in mind:
INT + AN might seem like a TON of stones to work with, but if you have a look at the Forge example, those stones disappear QUICKLY. High Int but low AN characters will still have a lot of stones to work with, but won't be able to make very powerful devices.
I went with AN + 5 as a cost initially, as I like to err on the side of caution. This makes it hideously expensive, and in turn that makes buying a modifier (which I like to represent as a laboratory) very attractive. Every good inventor should have kickass workshop.
My Forge example has Int 6 (4 white) and Inventing 7 (25 white). Logically, Forge should probably have Just The Thing and maybe Cannibalize, which would bump the cost of his Inventing up to 35 white. That actually seems a little too expensive to me. It's possible that some of those options should just be folded into the basic cost as features. He also has a Modifier, but depending on how we figure the generic modifiers, that probably costs a decent amount too.
I'm not married to any of those Options, by the way.. I just wrote them because they were ideas that came to mind.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 14:59:59 GMT -5
Whoa.. guys... hold on... Let's have this Gadgetry be a separate action... It looks awesome, and is more conducive to the medium, but there ARE inventors out there.
I mean Reed Richards and Hank Pym are prime examples of that... When they're not saving the world, or paying attention to their families, they're in a lab, inventing things. They may be small things... like Cleaning Robots that have been shrunk with Pym Particles so that they can be applied to toothpaste so you get a bitchin tooth cleaning, but they still invent things..
Or like my character Booster for the Guardians game... He invented things that were needed by the group... A Training Center, A Group Transport, Team Uniform Armor... It wasn't like he was inventing "The Ultimate Nullifier" cause you know... he could... technically... but he's not.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 13, 2009 15:21:04 GMT -5
Yes, but thats the problem Dio... leaving Inventing as it exists within the rules opens the door to doing things that comic book inventors DON'T do... constantly improve their powers and abilities.
With all due respect... building team vehicles and training bases sounds a lot like good "flavor" for a character who has Inventing, but its unnecessary to have a mechanic for it.
The ONLY real purpose of the mechanic as it exists is to allow people to do things that they don't do in the comics... consistently upgrade. Tech based heroes typically rely on the same gear that may or may not improve over time (i.e. LOE), but they don't become increasingly powerful based on wrapping themselves in ever greater amounts of technology. Iron Man, Hank Pym, and Reed Richards, all COULD theoretically build just about anything they wanted... but Iron Man stays with relatively static powered armor, Hank Pym with his Pym Particles, and Reed Richards with... well, actually, Reed almost never makes use of technology in terms of his own personal power level anyway.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 15:28:10 GMT -5
Iron Man is a bad example... Though he consistantly has the same powers... he's constantly improving them... When I stopped reading comics (shortly before the "Living Armor" thing) he was quoted as saying that the Iron Man suit he was wearing now is the 43rd model....
BUT I get what you're saying... But I think true Invention should be there in some sense... we'll just have to think of that sense..
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 15:33:42 GMT -5
Powered Armor should improve by lines like eeeverybody else. I'd say that he probably has this version of Inventing as well, since his Iron Man suit often has some little nifty gadget that's appropriate to the fight.
And yes, I mentioned in my rule set that "plot-oriented" stuff is basically free. It's an avenue for the GM to give you guys stuff, such as devices for controlling powers, neat vehicles, etc. If someone loses an arm the inventor can make them a cybernetic one - the difference might be basically negligible, but it's really interesting flavour. That part is largely up to the GM.
Also, it's meant to be in addition to more permanent equipment. An Inventor might have equipment that s/he always has around, like a suit of body armor, communicators, a visor that gives targeting, whatever. But those things should be bought at character creation like any other power. All that changes is the flavour of the power's source.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 15:46:06 GMT -5
Firstly, I disagree that Powered Armor should increase with LoE.... Honestly it's a much better system to have it improve inbetween issues with Inventing Stones, trust me, I've been there...
Secondly, not everything needs to be bought at Character Creation, that was the point of Invention in the first place. If I suddenly feel the need to have a point or two in targeting, boom.. there I go.
Also... while it might seem nice to have the GM give you things.... I, being an inventor at heart, will tell you that all THAT did was piss me off. I had a GM, she was nice, and was trying to do something for my character. As such, she had Iron Man take my character's designs, and have them built in half the time.
I will honestly say there was only ONE other time I was more pissed in a Role Playing Game... The suit I was improving was MINE to improve... not the GM's... how dare she. See what I'm getting at? It might seem nice, but there are those of us out there that would rather do it themselves.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 16:33:08 GMT -5
Firstly, I disagree that Powered Armor should increase with LoE.... Honestly it's a much better system to have it improve inbetween issues with Inventing Stones, trust me, I've been there... Yeah, we massively disagree there. I played a PA character who improved both by lines and with Inventing on her PA. The whole thing had a one-way business class ticket on the express train headed to Stupidsville. (*is crushed under the weight of his metaphor*) I just don't think its fair. The power of Inventing is proportional mostly to how much time you're given, and that freaks me out as a GM. In Last Class very little time has passed, but I intend to eventually skip entire months. That would be basically handing the Inventing character a free entire power just because I want to show some progress in the storyline. I don't know what that means in the context of this conversation. Did I say that everything needs to be bought at Character Creation somewhere? I'm 99.999999% sure I didn't. You're reading into things. I'm only suggesting that GMs can use the player's Inventing as a plot device. Also, inventing items such as Surge's gauntlets or Cyclops' visor are free, since they're not duplicating powers. You can design them and take whatever time you want for flavour, but there's no sense in making up a mechanic. Items that actually give stats shouldn't be free. They won't be free. One GM's mistake isn't hard coded into these rules anywhere. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but there's no reason that it should be repeated because of these rules. ~TWF
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