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Post by WildKnight on Mar 11, 2009 21:06:56 GMT -5
It worked well I guess, but it just wasn't balanced.
Can I fire my Force Blast at maximum AN every panel for 1 red stone per panel, just because it works?
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 21:46:30 GMT -5
Can I fire my Force Blast at maximum AN every panel for 1 red stone per panel, just because it works? Isn't that EXACTLY what people have been trying to do with Cyclops since MURPG was published and what you enabled when you suggested Force Blasts act as modifiers? The answer to your question is YES... IF we can nail down the pricing and balance it against everything else. Actually could we get a few more people to hop over to the "Determining Defense" thread so we get it sorted out? Apparently knowing how defense works makes everything else easier. I figured Phase Shift worked well enough we could clean it up for 2.0 pretty quick, apparently I was wrong. No Sarcasm, I'm just starting to see how this system could really work and I'm getting interested.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 11, 2009 22:05:25 GMT -5
Uh, no, thats NOT exactly what everyone has been trying to do with Cyclops.
No one in their right mind argues that its a good idea to toss out the resource allocation aspect of the game, and thats exactly what happens when we let people use extreme powers at very little energy cost.
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Post by malice on Mar 12, 2009 0:17:53 GMT -5
DE5PA1R: You suggested +4 or +5 I think. I'm very uncomfortable with +5, but +4 isn't much worse than +3. +4 is also more expensive than other defensive options that can be maintained indefinitely.
I had a longer post, but I'm really bored with this BS. I want Phase Shift that works for 2.0, and that's about it. Even if it was ahead of other actions in 1 it won't be as far in 2.0 because Energy is being handle way better.
WK:
This argument is neither fun nor productive and it's certainly off-topic the way you insist on criticizing things without offering ANY suggestions on how they could work better. If you really think it's useful or helpful to just say what you think is wrong without ever presenting an alternate idea, then I apologize in advance for not acknowledging that you even post in this thread. I lack the patience required to continue humoring you.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 12, 2009 11:31:15 GMT -5
My point and its solution should be fairly obvious
Phase Shift is too good to only cost 1 energy/panel. Therefore it should follow the mechanics of other "always on" defense Actions, i.e. you pay for it each panel.
Given that it is actually far superior to Force Field in every way, shape, and form, it should cost more to purchase AND require you to spend stones each panel, just like Force Field does.
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Post by malice on Mar 12, 2009 15:49:02 GMT -5
...with a max duration = to your Action Number? That sounds fine.
Here's one I thought of in the shower: You don't pay for Material Class when you buy the action, you pay for it when you phase through that material. So it would cost a Phase Shifter just 1 stone to get through a Class 1 Material, but 4 stones to get through something really dense and hard. Also, imo, unless stated in the Material's description (I think there's a version of Vibranium they can't phase through... not sure), Phase Shifters who pay the stones should be able to pass through anything.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 6, 2009 20:13:00 GMT -5
NECROMANCY!
So, I'm iffy about the old Phase Shift too. I don't want it to be too complicated, but I'd like it to be a little more balanced than it used to be. Here are some ideas I had in mind:
* Instead of a fire-and-forget system where you toss in stones in the first panel, and then don't have to worry until the duration expires, what about a per-panel upkeep which would require you to spend an Action on Phase Shift every Page? Kitty Pryde is often depicted as putting a good deal of concentration into her phasing, so this might make sense. 1 red every panel may turn out to be too little.. perhaps 2 red per panel?
* A related idea is to install a cumulative upkeep, which is even more punishing. It costs 1 red on the first panel, 2 red on the second consecutive panel, 3 red on the third consecutive panel, and so on. This would effectively limit how long you can stay phased, since eventually you won't be able to put any more stones in your box. On the downside, this utterly sucks for people trying to combine Phase Shift with Close Combat.. though perhaps that's actually a good thing.
* I've read that Kitty Pryde has difficulty phasing through some materials, such as adamantium. Perhaps attacks from Material Class 4 sources can cause stun damage; ie, stones of damage come out of the phasing character's energy pool, rather than health? Phasing through such materials could still be possible, but at an increased cost to the per-panel upkeep.
* I don't really know what's stopping a Phase Shift character from grabbing an enemy and depositing them directly into the floor. But something probably should. Currently we're relying on GMs saying "Uhm, no."
Thoughts?
~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Jun 6, 2009 23:07:58 GMT -5
* Instead of a fire-and-forget system where you toss in stones in the first panel, and then don't have to worry until the duration expires, what about a per-panel upkeep which would require you to spend an Action on Phase Shift every Page? Well, that's how I run Phasing. It's worked alright so far.Personally, I don't have a problem with saying "no" to BS insta-kills. In my mind, it comes down to rules. Phase Shift is a power for walking though walls, but it can't kill people (unless you use Phase Attack). End of Story.
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Post by Neros on Jun 7, 2009 1:39:12 GMT -5
Im in abit in a hurry, so I'll just throw in a couple thoughts..
How about making it work like unstoppable (which is what you are when you phase)? You need to "breach" the walls mass (which can vary depending on material type).. Only bad side here is, that you can actualyl place to few stones, start moving toward the wall and *bump*.. Which i don't think I've seen Kitty do..
But per panel is a great way to going around it..
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 7, 2009 1:46:23 GMT -5
Neros is on to something.
I don't mind the *bump* "oops I can't pass through this" idea though. I mean, I've never seen Juggernaut fail to run through something in a comic either, but for game purposes some people with unstoppable must be able to...
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 7, 2009 9:28:59 GMT -5
Both of those Actions (Unstoppable and Phasing) could work the same way: perhaps the cost of phasing through them can simply come out their Energy Pool when they phase through something (or something passes through them). This might be a bit of an arse to keep track of, though.
For example, let's say Juggy (Unstoppable 9 with a huge Str bonus of 9; Speed 2) is running through a building. He puts 2 stones into Unstoppable and shifts them to speed to move his max speed - plenty enough to run straight through the entire building in one Panel.
When Juggy's panel comes up, the GM resolves his Unstoppable Action. First, he smashes through the front doors, which the GM decides are thick wood with metal hinges and have a Break Difficulty of 3. This essentially forces 3 more stones out of his Energy Pool and into his Unstoppable box. Next, he plows through some cubicles, which the GM decides are only Difficulty 1; an easy task since he is already being Difficulty 3. Then he passes through a couple support pillars made of concrete, which have a Difficulty of 6; this forces 3 more stones into his Unstoppable box. The GM decides that nothing else in the building is harder than Difficulty 6, so Juggernaught successfully smashes his way clean through the building and out onto the opposite street. The whole act cost him a total of 8 stones.
If, for example, Juggernaught only had an AN of 5, he wouldn't have been able to smash through those concrete pillars
Phasing could work the same way: if Kitty Pryde is phased and she's shot with lead bullets (Lead has a Difficulty of 4), 4 stones would be forced into her box. If she can't fit those stones into her box, then she should take stun damage (ie, stones of damage come out of her Pool).
Having written all of that, though, I realize that it sorta takes the fun out of MURPG. A lot of the fun is deciding in advance what you think you need to accomplish and betting on how many stones it will cost you. It's only two Actions, though.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 7, 2009 9:40:46 GMT -5
I'd prefer to stick with the "betting" system, and just let players risk failure. After a while, clever players will be able to gauge correctly on the D&R chart anyway (which makes sense... after a while you should learn to "eyeball" things like that).
I mean, in comics characters rarely miss with attacks (and even more rarely do we see any kind of "glancing blow"), but those things commonly occur in MURPG and all RPGs.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 7, 2009 10:40:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I think I prefer that too. It's maybe worth trying.
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Jun 7, 2009 12:57:00 GMT -5
Hmm.. Well the "draining" on the energy pool sounds like a really good idea.. It could also make phaseshift/unstoppable abit different from all the other actions... But im not against the "risk of failure" thing either since there is nothing wrong with it... Hell, which RPG dosent have it?
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 7, 2009 18:35:07 GMT -5
After giving it some thought, I'm wary of making Phase Shifters spend stones vs hardness. It sort of ruins attempts to use the Phase Stun/Attack options (most of the time your AN is going to be consumed with just not getting shot), plus we can't exactly say what the hardness of a force blast or a fist is. I think it's just a little too messy.
~TWF
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