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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 29, 2011 19:01:28 GMT -5
K, how about the Red Skull?
For, against?
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Post by roxolid on Oct 29, 2011 19:06:36 GMT -5
I'm close to saying GG myself though. He also killed Gwen Stacy in an oft remembered scene. ...killing one girl is actually a viable argument for being THE GREATEST VILLAIN of all time? You need to really rethink your ways of judging people. Absolutely. Seeing as Spiderman is (easily) one of the greatest comic book heroes of all time, the bad guy killing his true love definitely boosts his evil rating. What's Doom done? Made a few robots, had all his plans foiled by Reed Richards, blasted a few underlings? When Goblin dismantled Spiderman (following him, taking out his spider sense, ambushing him whilst in his civvies and capturing him, then dragging him about on the Goblin Glider) I was gobsmacked. Amazed. I'd never seen any comic book hero so completely humbled by the bad guy. Spiderman was my idol back then, and I couldn't believe what I was reading. THEN (later) he comes back and has a hand in killing Gwen Stacey, a character who'd been around almost since day one (can't remember if she was in ASM#1 or even Amazing Fantasy 15?) So hell yes, Green Goblin is a hardcore bad ass. Killing off a major character and completely kicking the ass of THE major comic hero at the time (and perhaps any other time - he's up there) ranks as the best in my opinion. And he keeps coming back for more, defying death as well as Doom and reinventing himself, coming up with even more crazy schemes. Dr Doom gets dusted off an wheeled out every now and again, but back in the 70s I think everyone had a pop at him, not just the FF. I'd be surprised if Howard the Duck hasn't kicked his arse at some point. Goblin is nutty as a fruit cake married to superhuman power and genius level intellect. Whenever he was in a comic book you knew Spidermans life would get much, much harder, and now he operates on a Global scale because the Marvel people realise he can be a problem for everyone else too. |
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 29, 2011 19:07:29 GMT -5
Red Skull is an irredeemable, full-on dickbag. Given.
But really? He mostly pisses in Captain America's wheaties, and that's about it. I can't think of a single significant major Marvel event that featured Red Skull as the main antagonist.
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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 29, 2011 19:12:24 GMT -5
Red Skull is an irredeemable, full-on dickbag. Given. But really? He mostly pisses in Captain America's wheaties, and that's about it. I can't think of a single significant major Marvel event that featured Red Skull as the main antagonist. Heh. I like that Wildknight, very funny. The argument is also valid. He's a jerk who never did anything big. |
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Post by roxolid on Oct 29, 2011 19:13:26 GMT -5
K, how about the Red Skull? For, against? he's a cackling old school baddie. All his schemes involve world domination. He thinks big. For a guy with few powers he's done well to elevate himself to potential world conqueror. Against: Aside from Captain America and by association the Avengers, he's not really bothered anyone else much. A lot of the others on the list are recognisable by non comic book readers but I'd say the Skull wasn't (even after the recent film, he's not a well known character outside comic book circles I'd say). Also because he thinks in terms of the 'big picture' he tends to fail big as well, in that he usually dies and the Marvel lot have to come up with some implausible way of escaping death the next time he shows up. In terms of success, he's a failure  For sure, that's to do (mostly) with Captain America, but any guy who can monologue as much as he does must surely realise (at some point) that "Hey, why don't I just shut up talking and shoot this star spangled clown?" Yeah, he arranged for Captain America to die. For a while. He couldn't even make that stick... (How DID Cap survive that anyway? Anyone ever find out?) |
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Post by roxolid on Oct 29, 2011 19:15:05 GMT -5
Damn Wildknight and his quick fire two liners...
Makes it look like I'm cross posting all the time (which in this case, I am. Still, we agree on Red Skull. Big on ambition, low on success)
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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 29, 2011 19:16:38 GMT -5
About Mags:
I don't think he wins because, he seems too.... nobleish.
WK, you once wrote a fantastic comeback to someone who said that, but I mean he seems to be written like, "oh, I'm not evil, I just want mutants to be equals through force."
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 29, 2011 19:17:30 GMT -5
I plot to take over the world every single day, too. I don't see any evidence that Red Skull has been any more successful than I have been. Do I get honorable mention for super villainy?
Anyway, Cap survived because he wasn't shot with real bullets. He was shot with some kind of goony "temporal stasis" bullet, so that Red Skull could retrieve him at any time, for some nefarious purpose. He was supposed to be trapped in time, but instead he got hurled back into WWII so that they could retcon his backstory. Again.
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 29, 2011 19:18:47 GMT -5
About Mags: I don't think he wins because, he seems too.... nobleish. WK, you once wrote a fantastic comeback to someone who said that, but I mean he seems to be written like, "oh, I'm not evil, I just want mutants to be equals through force." Yeeeeeeeeeah. Magneto isn't noble. I thought he was when I was an angry 15 year old and thought everyone was out to get me, but as a full grown man, I see him as a tyrant trying to wear the veneer of nobility. You know, like a politician. ;D |
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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 29, 2011 19:21:57 GMT -5
Same thing for me.
When I was younger I was like yeah...he's cool and he's not a bad guy...
Now I'm like, well, his powers are cool...
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Post by roxolid on Oct 29, 2011 19:22:12 GMT -5
I plot to take over the world every single day, too. I don't see any evidence that Red Skull has been any more successful than I have been. Do I get honorable mention for super villainy? Anyway, Cap survived because he wasn't shot with real bullets. He was shot with some kind of goony "temporal stasis" bullet, so that Red Skull could retrieve him at any time, for some nefarious purpose. He was supposed to be trapped in time, but instead he got hurled back into WWII so that they could retcon his backstory. Again. [facepalm]Awww no. They really think this shit up or just close their eyes and pick a number off a page then read down a list matching a) temporal bullets with b) retcon and c) nefarious purpose. Still better than a)bringing him back as a teenager and b)as the opposite sex with c)Rob Liefield as artist[/facepalm] Oh... wait.. they probably have done some of that at some point...  |
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 29, 2011 19:26:21 GMT -5
I plot to take over the world every single day, too. I don't see any evidence that Red Skull has been any more successful than I have been. Do I get honorable mention for super villainy? Anyway, Cap survived because he wasn't shot with real bullets. He was shot with some kind of goony "temporal stasis" bullet, so that Red Skull could retrieve him at any time, for some nefarious purpose. He was supposed to be trapped in time, but instead he got hurled back into WWII so that they could retcon his backstory. Again. [facepalm]Awww no. They really think this shit up or just close their eyes and pick a number off a page then read down a list matching a) temporal bullets with b) retcon and c) nefarious purpose. Still better than a)bringing him back as a teenager and b)as the opposite sex with c)Rob Liefield as artist[/facepalm] Oh... wait.. they probably have done some of that at some point... I think my favorite all time story about how comic books get written is the Death of Superman thing. Apparently at that time the Superman creative team (there were like 4 or 5 Superman titles at the time) had to physically get together once a year to plan out the year's storylines. They sat around in a room stumped for a few days, and then finally somebody jokingly said "why don't we just kill him?" So they did. Not as lame as tossing darts. But close. |
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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 29, 2011 19:27:46 GMT -5
If were talking cold-blooded evil killer, well we'll be here all day.
But I suppose I should look at it like you guys, evil AND capable of "taking over the world"
Maybe Mags is my man for that.
But still lingering is the messed up Green Goblin.
But Mags is also a good leader with a group of soldiers.
But Green Goblin's an amoral punk who doesn't seem to think he's, like Magneto does, noble.
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Post by roxolid on Oct 29, 2011 19:32:08 GMT -5
Besides that, I have to mention this guy again (because I mentioned him before, and hey, HE'S NOT ON THE LIST!) I give you... the reason the Avengers were formed in the first place (is there any higher accolade for a bad guy?)  Saying that, I'm amazed all the other bad guys don't team up to kick his teeth in because, y'know, he caused the Avengers to form a team. Oops. Anyway, he's been around forever (1949 first appearance in comics) and he's a pain in the arse. Operates on a mischief and a massive level, keeps coming back (as a woman and a kid I believe) and somehow worms his way out of being annihilated by the so called all knowing, wise, Odin. Actually, he shows Odin up to be a bit thick. I mean, would you put up with Loki for all eternity or just blast his ass to smithereens? In my opinion he ticks all of Dooms boxes and then some. |
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 29, 2011 19:35:15 GMT -5
I think both you and Rox are missing the boat on Green Goblin. The argument isn't that he ran Spider-Man and kicked his ass. So what? That Parker kid Forrest Gumps his way through everything he does anyway. Peter Parker at some point legitimately thought to himself... "yeah, sacrificing my marriage to MJ and our unborn child is worth bringing my 800 year old Aunt back to life. Again"
Spider-Man makes a solid argument for "dumb smart guy" on a regular basis.
The argument for Green Goblin is his more recent "work." Dude manipulated the entire country into thinking he was a good guy despite being a convict and a murderer, manipulated just about every hero there was, made mirror teams for every major hero group out of villains, and otherwise basically just ran the show.
Besides, if I'm being Meta... he's responsible (albeit indirectly) for the death of Sentinel, who may be the worst character in Marvel comics history.
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For sure, that's to do (mostly) with Captain America, but any guy who can monologue as much as he does must surely realise (at some point) that "Hey, why don't I just shut up talking and shoot this star spangled clown?"