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Post by WildKnight on Oct 31, 2011 7:35:26 GMT -5
Well, damn near took over the universe in the Annihilation series. BadAss enough that Death told Thanos he could learn a thing or two from him. Yeah. Well, if we're saying that one big storyline makes you the biggest badass of all time, then The Scarlet Witch is in fact Marvel's biggest villain. She has not only conquered the world, she conquered reality itself.
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 31, 2011 8:13:00 GMT -5
No, we're not saying that just the one storyline makes him the biggest badass of all time, we're showing an example of one of many things he's done, which included conquering the entire negative zone.
And Scarlet Witch would not necessarily equate to the biggest villain if you're comparing them, that'd make her one of the biggest bad-asses (2 separate things entirely). And you can't argue that she's pretty bad-ass to have done as she did. But, she didn't conquer reality at all, as a matter of fact, many many mutants alone proved to be impervious to her mechanations (or there really wouldn't be any Mutants left). She conquered a wee little speck of the universe (earth) with her reality alterations, nothing past that. Which... DOES make her bad-ass, but not on the scale of Annihilus and his Cosmic Rod.
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 31, 2011 10:47:05 GMT -5
. Which... DOES make her bad-ass, but not on the scale of Annihilus and his Cosmic Rod. Are... are you kidding? "I have a cosmic rod" "No you don't, you have an old pool noodle" "Huh? I... whatever, I'm all powerful!" "No you're not, you're a protozoa." The End After House of M/Decimation, it's pretty clear that Scarlet Witch outstrips all of Marvel's cosmic powered types in raw firepower a dozen times over.
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 31, 2011 11:38:30 GMT -5
You obviously don't know about Annihilus. Scarlet Witches powers would not work on the Cosmic Rod. Cosmic Rod is like a Cosmic Cube on power levels. Scarlet Witch never had fine control of her power, and only when in a state of mental trauma (insanity) was she able to bend reality beyond that of a few yards. Her power when at the reality-alterating levels were purely subconscious. Her control of it was at a much weaker level, without any hope at all of transforming something like a Cosmic Rod.
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Post by WildKnight on Oct 31, 2011 11:44:28 GMT -5
You obviously don't know about Annihilus. Scarlet Witches powers would not work on the Cosmic Rod. Cosmic Rod is like a Cosmic Cube on power levels. Scarlet Witch never had fine control of her power, and only when in a state of mental trauma (insanity) was she able to bend reality beyond that of a few yards. Her power when at the reality-alterating levels were purely subconscious. Her control of it was at a much weaker level, without any hope at all of transforming something like a Cosmic Rod. Dude. You're splitting hairs. The Scarlet Witch altered ALL OF REALITY. Even the cosmic cube has never done that. So the Scarlet Witch has to get stressed out to use her powers on that level. So does Hulk. The notion that it's "subconscious" is bunk, though. She clearly knew exactly what she was trying to do, and it worked. It may have required her to be in a specific mental state, but it wasn't just some kind of fluke occurrence. Your point about her power never reaching beyond "a few yards" is also false. She has resurrected the dead, and done other ridiculously potent stuff (remember, even Dr. Strange can't raise the dead willy nilly). Scarlet Witch is incredibly powerful, pretty easily on scale with a Cosmic Cube. In fact, in terms of actually having accomplished things within the setting, I would say that she's easily done as much as every cosmic cube combined.
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Post by UrbanBlue on Oct 31, 2011 14:40:43 GMT -5
Ok, so Annihilus, pretty cool.
Now, what about compared to Magneto?
Not in a fight (although...)
Well, Mag pretty much seems to scare the living crap out of people in Marvel because of the stuff he pulled. He once told every nation in the world to surrender their weapons and you'd almost think he would pull it off.
How about kill counts
Oh an Blastaar lives in the Negative Zone as a conquerer too so Anihilus may not be entirely in control of the NZ. In fact I think Blastaar was considered the leader of the NZ a couple of times?
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 31, 2011 15:35:31 GMT -5
Blastaar ruled a kingdom within the Negative Zone, Annihilus ruled the Negative Zone. While they are each other's greatest enemy, Blastaar doesn't win vs Annihilus (and has only ever been a monarch within the NZ, never its ruler).
As for Villainy, Annihilus realizes that his universe is shrinking and will soon end, he's been trying to expand his empire into the 616 universe. He's kinda the cosmic version of Magneto, wanting his subjects, natives to the Negative Zone to have this universe (much as Magneto wants the mutants to rule the Earth).
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Post by Beacon on Nov 1, 2011 11:01:13 GMT -5
If we’re talking overall then Thanos has everyone beat even without the “not counting Doom” stipulation.
Actually – if we’re just counting Earth-bound guys – you could easily argue that Baron Helmut Zemo has a better win/lose record than Doom.
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Post by roxolid on Nov 2, 2011 2:49:34 GMT -5
The big bad asses (and even Scarlet Witch, Apocalypse and others) are only wheeled out for cross over events for the most part.
I stick to my guns - gotta be Norman Osborn.
Magneto doesn't have his level of evil - he's not even insane, which helps. Both of those guys have to be up there because they are ever-present in Marvel day to day life, not just a once every few years event.
For a behind the scenes mover and shaker I'd say Loki, Doom and Kang. Every now and again they come out with stuff that'll shake things up, but they aren't regular characters. Whatever they do though, quite literally, you know will cause bother. They don't have normal lives. They are geared purely to make life hard for others.
No definitive answer for this in my opinion - we all got different ideas and arguments. I never thought of Annihalus and to be honest used to think he was little league - the FF used to kick his ass on their own. At some point he was cranked up, so now he's a major player - but only in cross over events. As far as I know he makes no regular appearances. Same with Scarlet Witch. And let's face it - she's spent 75% of her time as a good guy, 24% as a reluctant bad guy under Magneto and 1% as a bad ass. Hardly the worst thing to happen to the MU...
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Post by Beacon on Nov 2, 2011 13:03:23 GMT -5
Norman Osborn is pretty much everything wrong with corporate America.
He’s out to crush the little guy who gets in the way of his sense of entitlement and his warped worldview. He’s always taking credit for the work of other people. Everyone knows he’s guilty as sin and the only thing keeping him out of jail are expensive lawyers and backroom deals.
He’s a villain for our times but that doesn’t make him a good villain.
And his son is more interesting as a Spider-Foe anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 14:55:43 GMT -5
Norman took over the Avengers, and pretty much everything. He's been around for like 40 years. The only more credible villains in comic book history I can think of are Doom and Lex Luthor. Let's broaden the scope a little. Who's some cool villains outside of Marvel that we like? For me Lex Luthor is probably my favorite Villain of all time in any comic universe. Another great villain in my opinion was King Bradley off of Full Metal Alchemist. Sure he wasn't the main antagonist, and he worked within a group, or army, but he still managed to take over the whole country, and was pushing for even more conquest. There weren't any good comics I know of about his rise to power, but the rest of the humunculi probably helped out along the way, but most villains do have accomplices. I thought his power was very interesting too. In Brotherhood his death was a big deal. It took several brigsmen, Greed, and Scar pulling out all the stops to kill him.
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Post by Beacon on Nov 2, 2011 16:20:08 GMT -5
Norman took over the Avengers, and pretty much everything. Technically Norman took his inferior knock-off (the Suicidebolts) and made a failed attempt to capitalize on the public’s brand-loyalty by repackaging it as “the (Dark) Avengers”. Darth Vader is cool but I’ve decided the Star Wars prequels are almost watchable if you view the franchise as being about the Emperor’s rise (and fall) to power. David Xanatos from Gargoyles is the greatest cartoon villain ever. Like a lot of great villains they slowly turned him into an Anti-Hero/Anti-Villain just so he could still be effective without constantly stealing the heroes’ thunder. Beast Wars Megatron is my favorite Transformers villain. The only real redeeming factor about that awful Beast Machines spin-off is that we got to see him win (for a while). He should have won; Aside from Rattrap and Rhinox, the heroes were idiots. Lex really is a great villain in the comics and cartoons. It’s a shame the movies always handle him so badly. I wonder what failed real-estate scheme he’ll hatch in the next film. I’m kind of partial to Greed myself but he sort of dips over into Anti-Villain territory (especially the second one).
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 16:36:51 GMT -5
Lex really is a great villain in the comics and cartoons. It’s a shame the movies always handle him so badly. I wonder what failed real-estate scheme he’ll hatch in the next film. Ha! Liked it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 17:51:07 GMT -5
Beast Wars Megatron is my favorite Transformers villain. The only real redeeming factor about that awful Beast Machines spin-off is that we got to see him win (for a while). He should have won; Aside from Rattrap and Rhinox, the heroes were idiots. I loved Beastwars. I have several of the toys. My favorite story arch of Transformers was always Starscream trying to screw over Megatron. For me, it helped flesh out the characters a bit more. I’m kind of partial to Greed myself but he sort of dips over into Anti-Villain territory (especially the second one). Greed was an awesome character. Scar was an anti hero too, but still a good character. The only character I can think of in FMA that I didn't really like was Gluttony. There was no character depth there. Greed and Scar actually had personality
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Post by shenron on Nov 2, 2011 22:28:03 GMT -5
I am late to this party. My vote goes to Ultimate Magneto and mainstream Mr. Sinister.
Arguments could be made for Darkseid, Galactus, etc. But eh...
Oh, and just for the record I have a Cosmic Rod as well...
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