Avengers vs X Men

[roxolid]

So it's that time again. The yearly crossover event that 'changes the Marvel Universe forever' until the next ret-con. basic premise is that the Phoenix Force is on its way back to Earth, the X Men (and notably mainly Cyclops) wants to welcome it with open arms as some kind of messiah, Captain America, Iron Man and the Avengers want to stop it before it toasts the Earth.

That's the web thin plot out of the way.

What follows will be a series of match ups (I had a list somewhere. I recall Spiderman matching up against Ice Man, and I think Thor takes on Storm, but will check)

Ah, here's a list of 'ten fights we're looking forward to' from some website :

Spiderman vs Iceman

Who, What, When, Where, Why?

Iceman I will always remember as the guy who threw snowballs at Magneto no matter what anyone says of him being 'Omega Level'. Spiderman is a multi million (billion?) dollar franchise who sells bedsheets, dressing gowns, lunchboxes, video games, comics... the list goes on.

Archangel vs Daredevil

I think both characters are 'B list' in terms of status and power, but DD has his own title and fans, I have no idea on what Angels status is these days. Heck, is he still alive? I presume the 'Arch' part of his name means he's been powered up in some way, so maybe he gets the nod here.

Namor vs Luke Cage

I don't even see how this was a match up. I mean, sure, Luke Cage is tough and determined, but Namor is a whole lot stronger, faster, tougher, and heals in water. If Cage can somehow get the fight to take place on the surface of the sun, I see him standing a chance, otherwise this really should be a no brainer.

Spiderman vs Colossus

Apparently Colossus has been amped up to the power of Juggernaut. If that is the case only fan love and the writer of the book would keep Colossus from a win here. Even without Juggys power, in game terms Spiderman shouldn't even be able to hurt Colossus. He does have his webbing, and keeping Colossus off the floor will nullify him to a certain extent, but I think the shiny metal fellow should win this.

Hulk vs Emma Frost

Clearly mental powers will play a part, and Hulk has forgotten how powerful he can get when he's angry, so I don't know how this will go. Head says Hulk, Heart says Hulk, the writers will somehow force either a draw or win for Frost I reckon. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Colossus vs Thing

Having mopped the floor with Spiderman, I expect Colossus to do the same with Thing. Thing is a better fighter, probably smarter, but Colossus should be nigh on invulnerable and stronger than Thing. Can only see this going the way of the shiny metal fellow.

Storm vs Thor

Hmmm. This should be an absolute walkover for Thor. He is, in my opinion, able to mop the floor with the X men on his own, and that includes Juggolossus. Something fishy going on if Thor doesn't win here.

Miss Marvel vs Rogue

Now these two have history. Last time out, Rogue took everything about Miss Marvel and made it her own. This, out of all the match ups, should be the most interesting and I won't predict how it goes. It would be too easy to say Rogue does her thing again. I have a feeling it won't be so clear cut...

Iron Man vs magneto

Iron will come up with some cermaic or plastic type armour for this one. he's smart, he predicts stuff, he knows what Magneto is about. I also feel there's still bad feeling about him being 'iron Douche' from Civil War, and a lot of people will be happy to see the floor mopped with his head. I think Magneto gets this one.

Cyclops vs Captain America

On paper, Cap mops the floor with Cyclops. He gets in there, shield blocking every blast, then hands scott summers his backside. That would be the end of this event, so by that reckoning, Cyclops not only wins, but somehow comes out of this powered up as some new saviour for the mutant race - hell, maybe HE gets the Phoenix Force and becomes the most powerful hero in the marvel universe? The only thing I am sure about is that Cyke somehow wins. head says Cap, heart says Cap (Cyke hasn't been a favourite of mine since his days in the original x men) but I think Cyclops will win this, and something big will happen.

Anyone have any thoughts about all of this?

[takewithfood]

I am so disappointed with this whole Hope/Messiah Whatever/Phoenix Force thing. I was hopeful that Hope would be something other than a ridiculously powerful being, even though she nearly blew up Cerebra just by existing. I hoped that that was some sort of red herring and that the writers had come up with something a little more complex than "OMG LOOK SO POWERFUL OVER 9,000 PAY ATTENTION THIS IS BIG YOU GUYS!"

Power is not the only interesting and important factor in a storyline - or at least it shouldn't be. Likewise, I was excited when Magneto initially lost his powers as he had grown way too uber for my liking and felt that his powers were overshadowing his other strengths, such as his intelligence, his charisma, and his drive. He's far more interesting to me depowered, but no, POWER = INTERESTING YOU GUYS!

With regards to these pairings, though, I'm most curious to see what they do with Cyclops. From the few crossovers I've seen leading up to this, he's really being written as a heartless monster and seems to be falling into the plotline butt-boy role that Iron Man during Civil War. Granted, I've only seen a little, so it could just be those individual scenes. Aside from The Children's Crusade I can't even recall what else I've read lately.

Rogue vs Carol Danvers will be neat. Can't really say that I care about most of the others.

~TWF

[roxolid]

Agreed on the power thing. It takes de-powering a character to ignite interest again (Superman 80s reboot for an example). Sentry was as interesting as picking up fresh cut lawn clippings. This 'Hope' character, what's she about? I saw the comic where Cyclops is giving her a hard time, and she uses his Optic Blast against him. Some kind of Mimic? The name 'hope' suggests she's been set up as some kind of saviour for the Mutant race, but I think that's too obvious, if they make her the next Phoenix, would anyone be surprised?

Either Jean grey comes back or Cyclops gets the Phoenix Force, I reckon. Agreed on the Miss Marvel/Rogue match up. Miss Marvel is lined up to become the next Captain Marvel I believe, so there's no way she'll be mind wiped again.

[roxolid]

Now with added pouting and attitude. No doubt she'll keep the inflatable breasts.



Ridiculous.

[takewithfood]

Yeah, she's a mimic, only she can use other people's powers at full capacity, at times giving her more power than the person she's copying. Plus she's already demonstrated the use of the Phoenix force on one occasion, so I don't know what the mystery is about there.

I would have preferred something more along the lines of a mutant with absolutely no powers. Genetically a mutant, but functionally a human. She would be an incredibly significant bridge between the two species, an example of how much humans and mutants actually have in common. That could potentially have been far more useful and powerful in the struggle for peace (which is a political battle fought in hearts and minds, not a literal battle fought with fists and Kirby dots) - BUT NO, we got yet another uber-powerful red-headed back-from-the-dead time-traveling Summers family monstrosity and oh no what will we do I don't know how about we just all fight.

The writers who play into this constant EVEN MOAR POWAH! one-upmanship remind me of people who cheat and hack in online gaming. What's the fun in winning when all you're doing is taking away any chance that you'll lose? And why go through all the hassle of loading up your game and pressing buttons - why not just go all the way and distill the cheating at games experience down to it's fundamental element: just write "YOU WIN" on a piece of paper and occasionally look at it? Likewise, these writers should just print a comic that is just a picture of a grinning Chuck Norris holding God in a figure 4 leg lock (or the other way around, if you prefer) and be done with it. Then the rest of us can get back to stories that have actual meaning and themes and character development.

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Why are people so utterly clueless about Iceman? It's literally offensive to me that you don't understand why he's taking on Spider-Man.

Yes, Iceman threw snowballs at Magneto... 40 years ago when Spider-Man was still consistently getting his ass busted up by groups of thugs who didn't even have guns. Characters were a lot less powerful back then, because the fans weren't a bunch of instant gratification addicted morons back then.

Iceman is incredibly powerful, and moreover, he's a great matchup for Spider-Man because they have similarly limited methods of super-movement, similar methodologies of defeating opponents, and similar personalities.

[roxolid]

Apr 6, 2012 8:15:34 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

Why are people so utterly clueless about Iceman? It's literally offensive to me that you don't understand why he's taking on Spider-Man.

Yes, Iceman threw snowballs at Magneto... 40 years ago when Spider-Man was still consistently getting his ass busted up by groups of thugs who didn't even have guns. Characters were a lot less powerful back then, because the fans weren't a bunch of instant gratification addicted morons back then.

Iceman is incredibly powerful, and moreover, he's a great matchup for Spider-Man because they have similarly limited methods of super-movement, similar methodologies of defeating opponents, and similar personalities.

This is aimed at me, clearly.

I missed the part where Iceman was somehow 'powered up' and therefore I don't get what the big deal is about him. It's news to me. And yeah, he's the character who tossed snowballs at magneto and looked like Frosty the snowman. And he's always been a joker, who doesn't take himself seriously.

And we both know that whatever is written in comics doesn't stay canon for long. So iceman got 'powered up', huh? Give me a clue, because I am 'utterly clueless' clearly. What can he do now? Who's he beaten? Does he have his own title? Where does he rank in the big hitting league? Oh, and if he's such a big hitter, why is he up against Spiderman. Look at what I wrote.

"Iceman I will always remember as the guy who threw snowballs at Magneto no matter what anyone says of him being 'Omega Level'. Spiderman is a multi million (billion?) dollar franchise who sells bedsheets, dressing gowns, lunchboxes, video games, comics... the list goes on."

That is the fondest memory I have of Iceman, in the comics at a time when I found them most enjoyable. I can look back now and laugh/roll my eyes but I haven't followed X-Men with any kind of enthusiasm like I used to back then (every issue). At some point (the coming of Wolverine) I was turned off of the X men, and moved on to other characters.

I didn't say anyone would beat the other. To me, Iceman is a definite 'B List' character regardless of what his supposed powers are. If he's so powerful, he should be taking on Thor, Iron Man, Hulk etc. Spiderman is 'A list' because of popularity, not power levels. What can Iceman do these days that he couldn't in his Snowman days? Ice instead of snow, fine, but I don't see the big deal about him. I see mention of 'Omega Level' and all I can ask is 'why?'

Another why - why is it you feel a need to jump down peoples throats? I post to discuss things, have a friendly chat, not to have someone jump down my throat because I haven't followed every issue of a comic for the last 40 years to track a minor characters' development.

[Kenshin Isawa]

Well on that note I am a Spider-man fan true but i have to say I am rooting for the web head Ice man maybe cool but he used to be his side kick on a Saturday morning cartoon shoe he needs to be put back in his place.

Oh and yes it will be a good fight since these 2 will be wisecracking all day. I hope it doesn't turn into another your momma joke competition like it did with deadpool.

[Hypester]

^Any issue since the mid 90s has Iceman as an immortal being who uses ice to almost Green-Lantern-like effect. He's only gotten worse since then. And while WK is a jerk, it is a bit off putting that you refuse to see some characters as growing while others, like Colossus, you easily accept the ridiculousness.

My thoughts

Iceman vs Spider-Man

Love Spidey, but he's outclassed here. He'd have to win by an as-yet-unknown weakness of Iceman's. Or beat him with words so he gives up.

Archangel vs Daredevil

Very nice thematic matchup. Daredevil gets the win to help re-establish himself. Also, DD is not an Avenger in any real sense.

Namor vs Luke Cage

Great way to put Luke Cage in the class 100 fold. But really... flight and experience trumps badassness.

Spiderman vs Colossus

Now THIS is an underdog fight. So Spider-Man has to win. Colossus can still be defeated by environment, even if he can't be punched out. Bonus points if both their names being Peter comes up.

Hulk vs Emma Frost

This, like

Colossus vs Thing

Y'know, seeing colossus come up so much, I'm starting to really think he's going to be a jobber. He's there just to show other people can hang.

Storm vs Thor

Another big underdog story. Likely to establish that Storm is THAT CHICK, and has god-level weather control. Eventually though, Thor should be able to close distance and win. They won't job Thor.

Miss Marvel vs Rogue

Great times, and a walk down memory lane. Rogue is on that stuff now, and Marvel's stopped their Ms. Marvel push, though, so she likely will win.

Iron Man vs magneto

This fight sounds so different than it actually will be. Iron Man is no longer metal, and Magneto no longer needs metal to do his thing. Iron Man is obviously going to win and they'll both explore their villainy and Tony will come out with a little more penance paid.

Cyclops vs Captain America

Cyclops can fight Wolvie to a standstill, so he can do the same with Steve. Obviously, Cap can't lose any more than Wolvie can. It'll be a draw, and then they'll both have to deal with the Phoenix, and Cyclops will be somehow both wrong and right.

It's a shame that we can call these fights based on who Marvel wants to promote or not.

I do agree though, the Phoenix won't go to Hope, not only is Hope's actual power (Mastery of Mutants/Mutancy?) not yet fully explored or understood, but at this point, now that the attack has been called, it's too predictable to follow through with.

I put my money on an Avenger getting the Phoenix Force and becoming a cosmic entity. Scarlet Witch might be nice.

[takewithfood]

marvel.wikia.com/Robert_Drake_%28Earth-616%29

That wasn't hard, was it?

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Bobby Drake has powered up over and over throughout the years, actually...

But my point is that the X-Men have ONE. Count them... ONE A-level hero. Wolverine. That's it. The rest of them are ALL b-listers. So is every Avenger who is a top tier character supposed to take on Wolverine?

I should stop typing... Marvel might take me seriously.

[Hypester]

That's why the xmen are fielding a bunch of a level villains. :-)

[Brainstem]

Fielding one? Magneto's the only villain you mentioned up there.

Also, don't Spider-Man and Ice Man have a history together? My knowledge of comics isn't the best, but I feel like this is a thing.

[WildKnight]

Apr 6, 2012 20:22:59 GMT -5 Brainstem said:

Fielding one? Magneto's the only villain you mentioned up there.

Also, don't Spider-Man and Ice Man have a history together? My knowledge of comics isn't the best, but I feel like this is a thing.

There was a cartoon called Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, with Iceman and Firestar (Firestar may be a character actually created for that show, but I wouldn't stake my reputation on it). Over the years, the comics have suggested that Bobby and Peter have a bit of a friendship, or at least a mutual respect, but I don't think it's been expanded on widely.

The comic book version of Spidey's Amazing Friends was Green Goblin (Harry Osborne edition) and... Sandman? I think it was Sandman. It was very short lived.

[roxolid]

Apr 6, 2012 11:05:51 GMT -5 Hypester said:

it is a bit off putting that you refuse to see some characters as growing while others, like Colossus, you easily accept the ridiculousness.

Well, it was news to me about Colossus being ramped up (quite literally, I found out today whilst looking at the match ups.) I accept that characters do change over time, but so little of it actually sticks! How many times have we seen spiderman change? e.g. "During the course of the One More Day storyline, Peter's powers developed during "The Other" (and the powers obtained from his incident with the Queen) have disappeared without explanation. In an April 2008 interview regarding "The Other"'s place in continuity, Joe Quesada said that "while we won't be making any direct references to 'The Other,' it's still a part of Spidey history, and it remains to be seen how Pete lost those powers."

And that's just one time that Spiderman has been powered up and mysteriously lost powers. With a character like Iron Man, you can see his upgrades with the different suits of armour and some of those don't stay around for long (Hulkbuster suit for instance). I'll bet Colossus doesn't stay powered up for long, either.

Regardless, these sort of hero vs hero matchups are little more than popularity contests in many cases, and I cannot see Iceman beating Spiderman, regardless of his power level (and therefore making a mockery of his supposed Omega level power). He'll probably throw a bag of irradiated rock salt over him or something, to reduce him to a puddle...

Be mildly interesting to see what they do with Wolverine. He's an Avenger and an X Man, as is Beast. Either of those against Spiderman would be tough to call, but I can't see that happening. I hope this crossover will finally sort out the roster for the Avengers anyway, because anyone/everyone seems to be in a version of the team these days.