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Post by WildKnight on Jun 18, 2012 13:49:31 GMT -5
And like it's like most crazy characters. No one writes them in a way that's actually interesting. They just use it as an excuse. By itself, it's not bad, I just don't think most writers can handle it well enough, and he'd end up a Designated Hero, a trope I hate above all else. Erm... Batman is an excuse in and of himself. How is "because he's crazy" any worse than "because he's super smart"? Batman's writers have been lazy for years. At least when they were writing him crazy a while back, it forced them to re-think things some. Besides, you're defending him against something he already is, they just don't talk about it anymore. This is guy who took no less than FOUR children and taught them to be crime fighters... but only as long as they did it exactly the way he wanted them to. When any of them doesn't do EXACTLY as he says, he punishes them with silence. When they do obey his dicatatorial demands, he rewards them with... silence. He has REPEATEDLY chosen his oath not to kill over the lives of hundreds and thousands of innocent victims. Batman is nuts, dude. All I'm asking is that we stop pretending he's not.
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Post by Dullahan on Jun 18, 2012 19:18:58 GMT -5
I could argue this further, but my current mood would get in the way, and I'd look even worse than I already do(if possible).
So I'll just let it lie.
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Post by Hypester on Jun 19, 2012 21:35:57 GMT -5
Okay, not killing being the morally right/justified/correct thing to do is a comic book contrivance that I appreciate. Otherwise, it's a bunch of stories about why this or that killing is justified... with very short lived villains. I would not enjoy that.
But even beyond that, Batman is someone who lives his life based on pain from a prepubescent trauma, he has experienced no healing, that's not emotionally healthy. His childish silent treatment and emotional stuntedness are simply symptoms of that. Compounded with his paranoia-fueled analytical abilities, and his out and out sadism, legendary obsessive tendencies (which are accompanied by compulsion) this is not, by any means, a mentally healthy person. He is imbalanced.
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Post by roxolid on Jun 20, 2012 1:15:32 GMT -5
Okay, not killing being the morally right/justified/correct thing to do is a comic book contrivance that I appreciate. Otherwise, it's a bunch of stories about why this or that killing is justified... with very short lived villains. I would not enjoy that. But even beyond that, Batman is someone who lives his life based on pain from a prepubescent trauma, he has experienced no healing, that's not emotionally healthy. His childish silent treatment and emotional stuntedness are simply symptoms of that. Compounded with his paranoia-fueled analytical abilities, and his out and out sadism, legendary obsessive tendencies (which are accompanied by compulsion) this is not, by any means, a mentally healthy person. He is imbalanced. Sounds like he should go out, get drunk and get laid. By training all these Robins up, he's making more compulsive nut jobs that should be out there enjoying themselves instead of beating up the scum of gotham for kicks. With regards the comics, I think only a Batman reboot would restore some faith/interest in the character. An 'ultimate' version even, based on the Bale movies. Yup, I see WK agreeing with me on that as well.
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Post by kito on Jun 20, 2012 1:55:02 GMT -5
if i recall Batman lovers and madman www.amazon.com/Batman-Lovers-Madmen-Michael-Green/dp/1401217427 (link to see book) Was a well written batman story Probably not the best but 1 of the few i ever liked for batman. In it he Unknowingly makes his own worst nightmare along with a bunch of other flaws (dont want to into them all as idk if u have all read it) But for me the end was the best part because he did "Fail" he does save some people and beat the bad guy but he does not save every 1 because he has no super speed or time stop powers to do so, so as a man he only saves what he can and for me that is batman. he is very human and doing all he can but it will never be enough because he is only human.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 20, 2012 7:02:34 GMT -5
Okay, not killing being the morally right/justified/correct thing to do is a comic book contrivance that I appreciate. I agree, but for the fact that Batman's REASON for not killing is completely hypocritical. Superman refuses to kill out of respect for the law. Batman sees himself as above the law... yet trusts the prison system, despite repeated failures over the years, to keep these sociopaths locked up. Personally I appreciate the fact that Superman has killed on rare occasion, but didn't become a murderous thug who killed anyone and everyone whenever he felt like it. Where I sit, it's impossible to argue the moral superiority of choosing not to kill someone who will unquestionably go on to murder dozens, hundreds, or thousands if left alive.
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Post by UrbanBlue on Jun 21, 2012 13:08:44 GMT -5
I would like to defend Frank Castle briefly.
He is crazy but I think it should be conceded that he is at least interesting.
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Post by Hypester on Jun 25, 2012 13:57:21 GMT -5
Okay, not killing being the morally right/justified/correct thing to do is a comic book contrivance that I appreciate. I agree, but for the fact that Batman's REASON for not killing is completely hypocritical. Superman refuses to kill out of respect for the law. Batman sees himself as above the law... yet trusts the prison system, despite repeated failures over the years, to keep these sociopaths locked up. Personally I appreciate the fact that Superman has killed on rare occasion, but didn't become a murderous thug who killed anyone and everyone whenever he felt like it. Where I sit, it's impossible to argue the moral superiority of choosing not to kill someone who will unquestionably go on to murder dozens, hundreds, or thousands if left alive. I appreciate that about Supe too. I think, within the story universe, it is not understood that the prisons are faulty. There's a reason they can't tell that story, address that issue, because if the prisons hold, then you might as well kill the bad guys, y'know? They are out of the story, unless there's some big event where you can justify no one being able to expect it. To me, this logical conclusion not being available to the characters is a necessary evil.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 25, 2012 18:36:50 GMT -5
. To me, this logical conclusion not being available to the characters is a necessary evil. The problem is we're not talking about a universe where the logical conclusion is unavailable; we're talking about a universe where one man rigidly refuses to apply logic that other characters have used to the greater good on numerous occasions.
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Post by Black Sam on Jun 25, 2012 22:50:44 GMT -5
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Post by Hypester on Jun 26, 2012 11:44:08 GMT -5
. To me, this logical conclusion not being available to the characters is a necessary evil. The problem is we're not talking about a universe where the logical conclusion is unavailable; we're talking about a universe where one man rigidly refuses to apply logic that other characters have used to the greater good on numerous occasions. They do? Help me out, give me an example.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 26, 2012 15:32:38 GMT -5
The problem is we're not talking about a universe where the logical conclusion is unavailable; we're talking about a universe where one man rigidly refuses to apply logic that other characters have used to the greater good on numerous occasions. They do? Help me out, give me an example. Superman killed Zod because he knew he could not be contained. Wonder Woman killed Maxwell Lord because he had control of the government.
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Post by Silentking Alpha on Jun 26, 2012 16:03:17 GMT -5
Yet Batman lets Joker live every single time they fight. And I heard there is one Batman issue that explores what happens if he does break his code. He snaps, goes and kills every super criminal in the world, and builds a utopia which he leaves because he no longer fits within it. Sounds interesting, but shows what kind of guy Bats is.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 26, 2012 17:06:33 GMT -5
Let's not forget, the only reason KGBeast isn't dead by Batman's hand is because of creative retconning after the fact. He absolutely "killed" KGBeast the way that story was originally written.
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Post by Silentking Alpha on Jun 26, 2012 17:23:26 GMT -5
Who is KGBeast? Was that the guy that Batman killed, thus setting him on a rampage against all criminals?
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