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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 9, 2009 17:26:31 GMT -5
Wildknight:
If we define a Panel as "however long it takes to accomplish your tasks," that's fine. But then we have to consider whether or not Blob's panel is 10 seconds where Quicksilver's is 5. That naturally leads us to the question: Why is Quicksilver just standing around for 5 seconds? I understand the need for game balance, but if we can do it a better way, then we certainly should. While panels don't need to be set at a certain time, the general idea (that fast people would probably do more stuff than slow people) at least deserves attention.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:34:10 GMT -5
No, we don't, and thats the point.
Does anyone ever actually READ the rules? Its clearly stated that where one character accomplishes more in his panel than another character might be accomplishing, that character gets MORE PANELS rather than doing MORE STUFF IN ONE PANEL.
If you actually use the mechanic, it works just fine.
The problem, btw, with all this "Quicksilver should do more!" stuff is that Quicksilver doesn't accomplish more in the same period of time than most other characters, most of the time.
Why? Because he's still limited by the physical capacity of the world around him. You can only log so many keystrokes/second in a computer. No matter how fast YOU are, the computer can only accomplish so many calculations/second.
Other elements people tend to complain about are already covered by the existing stone count...
"Quicksilver throws more punches than..." yes he does. Thats why Speed is his modifier to Close Combat. He can throw 20 punches in the time Hulk can throw one. So what? Hulk will still hurt you worse.
"Quicksilver moves faster..." yes, he does. Thats why his Speed is so high.
"Quicksilver can think faster..." then he should have a higher Intelligence or a higher General Knowledge.
None of this stuff requires any kind of rigid accounting of time/panel, nor does it require us to get rid of a good, functional rule.
I've yet to see Quicksilver deliver a rousing speech, beat up an opponent, cook dinner for his girlfriend, and program a computer in the same panel... so I see no need for him to have more than two actions per panel.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:36:22 GMT -5
Yes, but it also give us a rough estimate of how long a Combat Panel is.... And we should use that to our advantage, not pretend it doesn't exist. You say that because it argues for your point. The problem is, every other element of the game is based on the idea that a panel is however long it needs to be to accomplish a specific task, and setting 30 seconds/panel as a "hard number" really screws up many elements of the game, while using "fluid time" works pretty well.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 17:51:00 GMT -5
No, I'm not, and you know that. I've always held true that IN combat, a Panel is anything that can be accomplished in 30 seconds.... I've said it in countless games that you AND I have both been in. Now that that's established, let's look at this. Could quicksilver do more in a panel then the Blob...
How bout looking at it this way.
In combat..
How long would it take The Blob. to run a mile, punch a guy in the face, catch a girl from falling, pick up Scarlet Witch who tripped, and then tell Captain America he's a lout? I'd say, quite a while.
How long would it take Quicksilver to do the same exact thing? About 30 seconds... AND He's done it in comics before. Now... we take a look at my thoughts, and Lo and Behold... I proposed 5 actions... exactly what I said Quicksilver would be capable of...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:52:35 GMT -5
Uh... I count 3 Actions, IF you insist on spending stones into Social Combat to throw a pointless insult at Cap
Action 1: Speed (run a mile) Action 2: Close Combat (Hit a guy, Catch A girl, Help Scarlet) Action 3: Insult Cap
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 17:53:48 GMT -5
If you want to say it that way, ok... (I counted Hitting a guy, catching the girl and helping scarlet witch as 3 actions...)
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:56:24 GMT -5
But... why? Close Combat should be able to handle them all, and Quicksilver should have a pretty big pool in it since he uses Speed as his Ability Mod. Thats exactly my point. We can open a totally unnecessary can of worms... or we can stick with a rule that isn't broken and works just fine, and deal with the fact that sometimes you're going to have to split your stones to accomplish tasks. BTW, Quicksilver COULD insult Cap... but at that speed, Cap wouldn't understand him well enough for it to be of any use
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:02:19 GMT -5
LOL... But he couldn't do all the actions he wanted to, even if he split stones... You counted 3 remember?
What I'm saying is that certain characters CAN get more done in a "Combat Panel", as I've apparantly coined, then others.... There's no reason they should be hampered by the fact that the creators of the game couldn't see past their own noses when they designed it...
Plus the fact that How can you say that Quicksilver couldn't do 5 things a panel, when Iron Man can do 7?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 18:06:34 GMT -5
... by the fact that the A.I. rule is extremely stupid (as is the rest of Powered Armor)?
The point is that it provides an essential element of game balance that is dangerous to ignore.
Just as a f'rinstance...
A guy with multiple actions with Ability Modifiers that can combine with Close (or Ranged) Combat.
I know what you're saying... "so what, he's going to blow through all his energy in one panel"
Yes, but he's also going to kill whatever he attacks, even if its The Hulk.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:12:46 GMT -5
What Ability Modifiers? Abilities are Bonuses remember?
Besides... If I've got Targetting, Claws, A Hand Gun, and Mjolnier in my hands.. having more than 2 panels doesn't matter either way... I'll RC CC you to death in one turn even WITH 2 actions.
I've never liked the 2 action a panel rule, and have always advocated for Speed to determine the number of actions.... Personally, I'd like to see Speed be a DIRECT number of actions, BUT no one is going to let me even near that one, so I'll settle for half.
And, you still can't prove to me that it's unneeded, you haven't proven that it's impossible, and I think I've done a pretty good job of making my points.
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 18:13:02 GMT -5
WK, I see your point about panels being flexible. However we need to decide how many extra panels he gets and why. Dio has a point in that most of the time, quicksilver has not gotten the extra panels he should have gotten. He has suggested a fix for that.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 18:14:08 GMT -5
Just want to chime in that I think WK's going in the right direction here (with splitting stones) and holy crap, Powered Armor is stupid.
I'm in favor of Powered Armor characters just having a CAD like everyone else. Some minor rules might be necessary, but nothing at all like what's in 1.0.
~TWF
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 18:15:31 GMT -5
I agree with TWF.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:16:48 GMT -5
Why should we limit people like that? I can see a computer handling 7 different things at once, because it can think and react faster than a normal human being....
The same thing that beings with Huge speeds can do... They react and think in a league beyond comprehension, and it's about time the rules reflect that.
Maybe it's the fact that I've always been a Round Up instead of Round Down guy, but...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 18:28:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but you're offering an absurd benefit out of line with anything we see in the comics or with the costs associated with being a speedster.
You're just wrong on this one man, I'm sorry to say that, but you are.
Splitting stones works just fine. There's no evidence that Quicksilver accomplishes more *more effectively* than other characters in the same time period, other than what he can accomplish because his Speed is so high (and if he thinks so much faster, his Intelligence should be higher... but thats no reason to give him extra actions)
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