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Post by Revan on Mar 1, 2009 1:08:32 GMT -5
I don't think there is anyone with a drain energy ability on the list. So in light of that I nominate Rogue, Sauron, and Omega Red to be added to the list.
I would also like to see Sinister and Mandarin on that list but that's just personal preference. I think it would be good to show Mandarin's range of powers through the rings he possesses and Mr. Sinisters ability to alter his Genetic structure.
I would also throw in Bullseye to compliment Punisher as a ranged combat user for the villians.
Lastly, if Ant-man (not Giant-man) is going to be on the list, I don't see a particular need for Wasp to be there. Nor do I see the need for Angel, a simple cad if I say so myself to be on that list. I would replace them with Gambit due to his current popularity and Jubilee or Meltdown to show a build on fireworks (if that hasn't been changed into a forceblast or some variation there of).
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 1, 2009 13:53:46 GMT -5
*cries*
What part of "its stupid to try to include someone representative of every possible build/archetype" don't you people understand???
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Post by Dionon on Mar 1, 2009 14:30:08 GMT -5
I'm not trying to include EVERY build... I made 10 very distinct builds that I personally wanted to include... I don't think it's that much to ask...
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 1, 2009 17:24:20 GMT -5
I think its a terrible idea. "Builds" are so utterly vague within the context of Marvel, as evidenced by the fact that someone just put Rogue into the "Energy Drainer" category(??).
Most characters overlap into a variety of "builds." This isn't D&D.
More importantly, the single most iconic Marvel of them all, Spider-Man, is a lousy example of any given build, and therefore should not be included because after all, we're trying to show the archetypes, right??
Sorry, I just think that basing our decisions on who fits where according to some artificial concept that doesn't really exist within the setting is a really bad idea.
IMO, the only real choice should be between iconic, time-tested heroes, or the current modern "dirty dozen" of popular choices.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 1, 2009 17:34:55 GMT -5
I think my builds were general enough to say that several heroes could fit... And it's not like we're going to say "Ok... this is a Blaster... if you want to build a blaster, go with him..." No... we're going "Ok... these are the bases we SHOULD cover, to give the player a good idea of the depth of the system"
You're right, this isn't DnD, and shouldn't be treated as such. I'm saying use my ideas as guidelines to who goes in or not... If we have 17 people with wings, what's the point of the book? If we have all people with the same powers, what's the point. My ideas were about variety more than anything.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 1, 2009 17:50:13 GMT -5
I don't think we were ever in any danger of having 17 people with wings All I'm saying is that Marvel is all about the characters, and I think its much more important to include Marvel's big personalities and important historical figures than to try to show that the system can handle a wide variety of characters. I think EVERY "build" will showcase some change to the system. I am agreed that "cosmic" scale characters should probably be left out of the initial set (I'd argue the same for Dr. Strange except that without Strange, how would we include a magic user of any kind)
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Post by Dionon on Mar 1, 2009 17:51:38 GMT -5
Haha, Well, yes, I was over-embellishing with the 17 winged characters, but my point remains the same. We can do both your idea and mine, and we'll be better off for doing both.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 1, 2009 18:01:14 GMT -5
I figured you were going for hyperbole on that one.
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Post by Cernunnos on Mar 2, 2009 20:35:29 GMT -5
Again...
I really really hate you guys!
Here is what the list of 40 now looks like:
GOOD: (22) Ant-Man (Henry Pym) Beast Black Panther Captain America (Do we want Steve or Bucky?) Professor Charles Xavier Cyclopes Daredevil Doctor Strange Hulk Human Torch Invisible Woman Iron Man Jean Grey Mister Fantastic Namor Nic Fury Punisher Scarlet Witch Spider-Man Thing Thor Wolverine
BAD: (18) Abomination Avalanche Blob Bullseye Doctor Doom Doctor Octopus Green Goblin Juggernaut Kingpin Loki Magneto Mystique Pyro Sabertooth Sentinels Toad Ultron Venom
[glow=red,2,300]WHICH CAPTAIN AMERICA WILL WE FEATURE? [/glow]
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Post by Dullahan on Mar 2, 2009 20:42:25 GMT -5
THE ORIGINAL! I'm pretty sure that's been said several times, and I doubt anyone wants to include anyone other than Steve Rodgers.
The list looks good. I have no objections yet.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 2, 2009 20:47:23 GMT -5
If its purely a consideration of doing the work, rather than space... I'll be happy to write up both Steve Rogers AND James Barnes. The two are very different characters, even from a "how you run them" standpoint. Steve tended to like to get up close and fist fight even though he could throw the shield, Buck prefers to toss the shield and open up with his gun, staying out of the brawling until absolutely necessary.
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Post by Cernunnos on Mar 2, 2009 21:21:54 GMT -5
If its purely a consideration of doing the work, rather than space... I'll be happy to write up both Steve Rogers AND James Barnes. The two are very different characters, even from a "how you run them" standpoint. Steve tended to like to get up close and fist fight even though he could throw the shield, Buck prefers to toss the shield and open up with his gun, staying out of the brawling until absolutely necessary. Maybe we could add Bucky in the appendices... or in the subsequent book I mentioned where we release nothing but more characters (probably a book with about 40-120 additional Marvel characters) as the "optional" Captain America!
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 2, 2009 21:37:40 GMT -5
Personally the question of which Cap to include goes right back to my original question;
Are we trying to frame a "classic" Marvel, or a representation of the "modern" Marvel? Because I think the choices we make should be entirely different based on the frame of reference.
For instance, I'd never think of including Emma Frost in a book of the most important all-time Marvel characters, but you HAVE to include her as an extremely important element of the "current" storylines.
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Post by Lord Zack on Mar 2, 2009 21:53:20 GMT -5
I think classic is the way to go.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 22:21:54 GMT -5
I think re-doing classic CADs is a useful excercise but I think more modern characters can challenge the system more.
Someone suggested that people just do the characters that are near and dear to them, which I actually think is the best place to start. People know their favorite characters pretty well and are therefore good at representing their abilities. If they make them overpowered (as we tend to do with our favorites) then others point it out and the criticism is OFFICIAL and therefore not subject to that "agree to disagree" or "everyone has their own opinions" BS.
So once the system is pliable enough I think volunteers should retreat to their seperate corners and work on the FIRST DRAFTS of between 3-5 characters of their choice (Two people can make the same character, it will actually help the CADs to be very impressive). As they complete the drafts they should post them in a seperate sub-board in a poll-thread named after the character.
THEN people come out of hiding and have their drafts vetted by others.
After that final drafts of characters should be made with the criticisms and concerns of others considered.
Basically it will work just like the characters board does now, except with more format.
After that initial process, you let people fill in CADs where they feel like.
It will give you an assortment of characters varied in how "classic" they are and what type of powers they have. None of the characters will be original, they'll all be existing characters.
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