|
Post by malice on Mar 9, 2009 11:53:17 GMT -5
Very true, unfortunately. Although eliminating or ignoring certain of your opponent's defenses is a valid alternative to simply increasing your attack stones, it wasn't always well done and/or well explained in MURPG 1. I found little pieces of neglect like that the most frustrating. Of COURSE it's going to come up against a Force Field! So WHY isn't it in the rules how that works?!?
I think we can translate it to 2.0 in a more balanced fashion, and account for things like Force Field so people don't have to house rule it every time. The old Phase Attack was based on AP though, which is a different system in this game.
... I'm going to look for a Phase Shift 2.0 thread, and if it's not around I'm making one.
|
|
|
Post by malice on Mar 9, 2009 13:00:50 GMT -5
I think we should use the defense matrix or a variant of it and then have a generic "Defense" modifier they can buy that's priced based on their existing defense they got from the matrix. They can choose how much of that modifier is Toughness or Reflexive Dodge, and can even have it be all of one.
One compilation of how defenses should work in MURPG:
1. Use the Defense Matrix except for this edit: Int = Mental Defense and there is no "will" stat. So mental defense works exactly as it did in MURPG 1.0.
2. Create a "Defense" modifier that looks like this: "Defense" Your Toughness + Reflexive Dodge+MN = Additional Cost Levels - As many stones as your Toughness + Reflexive Dodge would have cost if you didn't get them for free. Decide how much of your MN is Reflexive Dodge and How much is Toughness. It can be all of one if you like.
3. Allow players to buy a "Material Class" on their Toughness if they want to resist Armor Penetration
So Hulk has 9 Defense for free. 8 Toughness from the average of his 10 Str and 7 Durability, plus an additional 1 Reflexive Dodge from the average of his Agility of 2 and Speed of 1. He wants 10 though because it's a nice round number. So he buys "Defense: Toughness" at 1 for 3 stones (Toughness 8 + Reflexive Dodge 1 + Modifier 1 = Cost level 10 [15 stones], 15 stones [Cost level 10] - 12 stones [Cost level 9, Hulk's original Defense total] = 3). He then pays 5 stones to make his Toughness a Class 5 Material.
If "Defense" is too cheap, then you can use this pricing instead:
Cost = MN + [Toughness MN] + [Reflexive Dodge MN] Cost Levels
That makes it absurdly expensive for characters with high ability scores (And therefore high defenses), but semi-affordable for characters with low ability scores. So Black Cat (Who has all 3's, and therefore 3 Toughness and 3 Reflexive Dodge) would pay 6 stones for MN 1 "Defense" (She'd probably make it more Reflexive Dodge).
The Defense Matrix means characters will always have at least 2 defense and 1 mental defense, but it also makes getting them really high means you have either high abilities (expensive) or bought a special modifier (quickly expensive). It also really averages things out. Hulk starts play with 9 defense because he bought a 10 and a 7 (I actually think his Durability should be 8). Black Cat starts play with 6 defense but she only bought 3's.
Another option is to Average ALL of a character's physical ability scores to determine their base "Defense" and they decide how much of it is Reflexive Dodge or Toughness. With this system Hulk would have 5 Base Defense and could decide it was all Reflexive Dodge if he wanted (Although he would obviously choose Toughness). Black Cat would have 3 Base Defense and could make it all Toughness if she wanted (Although the character obviously chose Reflexive Dodge). This results in lower Base Defenses, and if this were the system we chose I would opt for less draconian pricing on the "Defense" modifier.
I've presented a few variants here, so feel free to attack or champion any or all of them. I'm actually leaning towards averaging ALL of their physical ability scores to get them that much "Defense" and then have a "Defense" modifier they can buy that's priced based on their existing "Free" defense.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Mar 9, 2009 13:14:31 GMT -5
Wow that first "Defense" thing is really complex (BTW, The highest Material Class is 4...) But so far it's the best solution I've seen...
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 9, 2009 15:42:49 GMT -5
Ok, so I have been doing some reading and thinking and this is what I have come up with.
passive defense is strictly a byproduct of abilities and can not be improved.
Dodge = (SPD + AGI)/2 Toughness = (STR + DUR)/2 Mental = INT
When someone attacks the total stones are checked against Dodge. If the attack is greater, toughness is deducted from the attack and damage is dealt.
AOE ignores Dodge. Special attacks ignore toughness. it isn't easy enough to say touch attacks, but some attacks should simply ignore toughness.
Reasoning: A fast and agile character is naturally going to attempt to avoid attacks. If they get hit, it hurts them alot, but everyone has some measure of pain tolerance and absorbing attacks. In strong healthy people this ability is stronger than in others and is a byproduct of being strong.
This is simple static defense, meaning always on no energy required. Making this too large is what escalates the need for huge attack stones.
Active defense are powers that temporarily increase ones defense by the use of energy. This number will often times be higher that passive defense, as it should be. Powers that fall in to this category would include Force Field and the like. This allows people to spend points on being able to defend themselves, but requires them to be aware of the threat.
Lastly, equipment that can reduce damage. Things like a shield or power armor. I think the best way to handle this is one of two ways. They prevent all damage until a number of points and then 'break.' So a super shield could take 6 damage before it broke. Not a huge amount, but can be the difference in a fight. Armor can be repaired, or may even be self repairing. The reasoning here is that it does not require energy to be used, but should not be as powerful as passive defense.
The main point here is to give players as many options when considering defense, but prevent truly massive numbers without great investment. Coupled with balancing attacks that can bypass certain forms of defense, the basics are in place for truly strategic combat.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Mar 9, 2009 17:40:17 GMT -5
I honestly don't like the last part of what you said... Equipment that provides defense should just be added to "Toughness"
The reason behind this is simple... How do you measure something like Cap's Shield... It took the infinity gems to break it... How many stones are you going to say it can absorb? Then there's Iron Man's armor, which, has been stated to now have a hardness tougher than Adamantium... How do you measure that which by the system's own admission cannot be broken?
Just adding a set number to toughness might make certain characters hard to harm, but If The Hulk is lugging around Cap's Shield in a suit of Iron Man's Hulkbuster armor... He BETTER be fighting Galactus...
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 9, 2009 18:24:46 GMT -5
ok, so equipment like that is troublesome. I can't say they I have a direct answer but why dont we make a couple of observations.
If Cap has his shield, and gets hit by hulk, his shield will survive, but Cap might not, which would seem to say that Caps shield has a maximum amount of utility to him in any battle/attack.
Same can go for Iron Man's armor. Even if Iron Man armor can take the hit, Stark will still feel the hit. Eventually that will take a toll on Stark inside. Even if it takes a long time.
Now, given that, IF a GM gives equipment that strong to a player, they are going to have to have a work around or way to limit its total effectiveness. Like a mental attack or someone fast enough to simply run around Caps shield. The can be fantastic items, but they will always have a maximum utility to a character. The best way I have of representing that is having the equipment simple soak a given amount of damage before its benefits have been neutralized.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Mar 9, 2009 18:52:44 GMT -5
But you can't actually do that... it fails in practice. As long as Cap can still raise his shield, it provides him with defense. And yes, Iron Man would eventually feel the hits inside his suit, that's what his health stones are for.
I understand what you're trying to do, but this time it doesn't fit. The way it was done before, by adding to defense, is a better representative of what's happening. And if someone moves behind Cap when he puts up his shield, then he gets Situational Modifiers... simple as that.
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 9, 2009 20:01:27 GMT -5
Ok, so equipment is a problem then. Do you have issue with anything else I said?
If not, finding a way to make equipment work will go a long way towards getting a good understanding of defense. I have already highlighted why this is an important issue when designing a game.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Mar 9, 2009 20:13:14 GMT -5
I like most of the rest of what you said, as it echos most of the other people here, except for the inflexability of defense... Like take Hulk for example... Every 6 panels. (if you go by the old rules) he's going to gain +1 toughness.... And honestly... that WORKS for him... If you make them inflexable you lose something...
Maybe not inflexible, but perhaps... the fact that you can't improve Toughness or Reflexive dodge directly....
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 9, 2009 21:07:33 GMT -5
If they are inflexible all that means is that the come that way stock. A GM can always allow special circumstances or powers like Hulk. Even making rules like that won't unbalance defense.
My system is designed to limit the amount of FREE defense stones which are the core problem with the current defense because the require choosing powers that make very strong attacks. Sure, some people will want that single powerful attack, but I think most people want to be able to do more than one thing. It makes the game more interesting.
Sure, a player CAN get a huge passive defense, but it requires a large amount of stones at creation. The idea is to move to allowing for larger defense at the cost of energy. It requires better management and makes combat a bit more tactical.
|
|
|
Post by malice on Mar 9, 2009 22:18:40 GMT -5
Wow that first "Defense" thing is really complex (BTW, The highest Material Class is 4...) But so far it's the best solution I've seen... I just presented it really poorly. I was trying to break down into steps the very basic concept people utilize when they buy Mental Defense or Magical Defense on top of the free modifier granted to them by Telepathy or Mastery of Magic respectively. All you're doing is buying defense as if you bought the free defense granted by the matrix. So if you have 5 free from the matrix and you want it to go up to 7, you pay 3 stones. That's just the difference between Cost Level 5 and 7. It would actually cost more since the "Defense" modifier will have increases to it's cost level where Mental and Magical Defense now are just bought at MN, but I hope my point is clear.
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 11, 2009 13:20:11 GMT -5
so does anyone have any further ideas or issues with what has been presented?
As I have said, I believe defense to be the most important aspect of any game to get right because everything else comes down to how defense is defeated and things are actually killed.
Ideas on equipment would be fantastic.
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Mar 12, 2009 14:57:05 GMT -5
I wouldent mind trying out the defense matrix, however, Reflexive Dodge and Toughness is still needed.. You might have a rather normal build character (or atleast peak human) and he could have a exceptional 6th sense or a very tough body.. Also, halving is always troublesome.. Do you round up or down?
Also, easy-to-beat-the-crap-out-off thugs will have a defense of 2 since they will have 1 in all stats, not to mention normal humans..
But so fare, I really like Malice's idea about making the two types of defense "intvine" with each other when it comes to cost since when it comes down to normal defense, it will work against Anything.. This (as i see it), would fix the "Toughness: 3, Relfexive Dodge: 3" issue.. So at the moment, I would settle with that and the original rules created for defense.. But what is the "status" of the Defense Matrix System? How does it currently work?
|
|
|
Post by malice on Mar 12, 2009 15:45:27 GMT -5
Actually the idea of making reflexive dodge and toughness one generic defense modifier isn't mine. It's someone else's in this thread, and Captain Mako's years ago (If you search far back enough in the custom/house rules threads you'll find his thread). As I suggest it, the Defense Matrix works like this: Add together a player's Strength and Durability, then divide that number by two, and that is their FREE Toughness Add together a player's Agilty and Speed, then divide that number by two, and that is their FREE Reflexive Dodge A person's Intelligence doesn't work any differently than it did in MURPG 1 My additional step works like this: If a player wants more defenses on top of their free Defense from the Matrix, then they buy a generic "Defense" modifier that adds to their defense. The pricing of this modifier hasn't been agreed upon, but it might just work to be +3 to cost level. I price reduction might be fair though (+2 seems fair to me), since everyone is going to start out with some defense. The pricing option I recommend is buying the modifier on top of their FREE defense, as if they bought that free defense. So if they have Reflexive Dodge 3 and Toughness 3 (Like Black Cat), they have an existing "Defense" modifier of 6. If Black Cat wanted 2 more Reflexive Dodge she would pay for the difference between the additional Reflexive Dodge and her already existing "Defense" modifier. So if that "Defense" modifier was +2 to cost level and Black Cat already has 6 Defense from her abilities, the 2 new levels of Defense is going to cost her 6 stones (The difference between 8 defense at Cost Level +2 [15 stones] and 6 Defense at Cost level +2 [9 stones]). The system for buying more defense would work just like buying MORE mental Defense does now if you have Telepathy (Which grants you free Mental Defense). I hope I did a better job explaining it this time As for rounding up or down... I hate that question. I've been rounding down, but I hate ALWAYS rounding down. That's just a personal dislike though, you guys don't have to take it into account when deciding whether you like the system.
|
|
|
Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 12, 2009 18:17:50 GMT -5
I like that idea quite a bit, but it undermines the attempt to get away from free defense stones every turn. I think that free stones to defense break the game too easily and require combos to make huge attacks as opposed to being clever and using good RP to defeat enemies. "Power gaming" will occur, but it doesn't have to for a game to be fun/
I like the idea of everyone having some defenses for free based of raw physical ability. After that, I prefer an action changing defense based on spending stones of energy as opposed to a static modifier that act as free stones.
If someone can explain why having a modifier like 'toughness' as opposed to an action like 'harden skin' is a better in all areas including realism, balance, simplicity... then I will cede the point and we can look at something else.
|
|