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Post by Neros on Mar 18, 2009 3:46:07 GMT -5
Its complex and cloncky compared to the old system and what we could do.. You have to add 4 abilities and halve them, then you have to calculate how much it will cost for you to get Reflexive Dodge/Toughness, that is, f you see you're character as super tough or with that 6'th sense.. And if you don't see you're character as either Tough or Reflexive, you would have to create a system to get a refound.. Which I guess could be done with challenges.. =========================
Also, another thing that hit me:
Strength: 3 Durability: 2 This is 5, half of 5 is 2,5.. Rounding down (not sure if it was up or down), thats Defense 2.. But if you just increased either Durability or Strength by one, you could get 3 in defense.. So ofcourse you would do that.. I know i would and allot of my players would aswel..
If you round up: Half of 5 is 2,5, which would give Defense 3.. So if someone bought: Strength: 3 Durability: 3 He would gain 3 defense.. Just like the one who bought his Durability 1 lower..
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Post by Dionon on Mar 18, 2009 9:14:34 GMT -5
Always round down... Rule of Gaming... And if someone wants to spend 10 Lines of Experience to get themselves physically tougher.... Who are you to say they can't? It's a proven training technique used by every fighter type from Boxers to Shaolin Monks.
It's been thinned down and cleaned up for a while now, and isn't clunky at all....
Toughness = (Str+Dur)/2 Reflexive Dodge = (Agi+Spd)/2 Mental Defense = (Int)
The above is if we reinstate Durability as the Health Stat like I want to... you all get that...
To improve them, you just go "Ok... I have a 3 Toughness... Add 3 to it for the improvement cost, means that to improve it to a 4 is going to be 2 stones Oooooooooooh so clunky and vicious!
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Post by Dionon on Mar 18, 2009 9:16:22 GMT -5
And if you don't see a character as Reflexive, don't buy a high Agility or Speed. And if you don't see them as Tough? Don't buy a high Strength or Durability. Having those in comics is GENEARLLY associated with their corollaries on a 99/100 basis.
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Post by malice on Mar 18, 2009 9:40:18 GMT -5
Hold on... You're saying I'm vicious, but I'm at least being fair to all parties. You're just handing out stones like they're free candy. Seriously, if you go "Ok.. buy Defense at +3 CL, then split that into Toughness and Reflexive Dodge" You're essentially giving out several stones of defense for free.. *sigh* Clearly my posts are just plain terrible lately. You just re-stated back to me what I posted we should do. I know... that's why I suggested it in the first place. Who do you think you're talking to and what are you two talking about? Let me re-state it, hopefully in more clear language: First, no matter what we do I think Toughness and Reflexive Dodge should be one modifier. IF we don't use the Defense Matrix, Defense should be bought as a modifier just like it is now. The pricing isn't bad either (+3 to cost level for ONE modifier that has both Toughness and Reflexive Dodge within it). IF we DO use the Matrix we use the free defense granted by it to price any additional defense granted by the Defense modifier. JUST LIKE YOU SAID AND I SAID. We've only disagreed on HOW it's priced, not that it should be priced based on current defense. You're charging them for the defense from the Matrix when you should only charge them the difference between their new defense and the defense from the Matrix. Almost as bad is that you charge treating Toughness and Reflexive Dodge as seperate which means it's cheaper to have both - AGAIN like it was in MURPG 1. So again, I'll explain the way I would like to do it, and I'm not even going to say Toughness or Reflexive Dodge until the end. Malice has Telepathy 6 and therefore 6 free Mental Defense. He wants 7 Mental Defense but doesn't want to increase his telepathy any more, so he pays 2 stones (The difference between cost level 6 and 7) Malice also has 6 free Defense from the Matrix, but wants 7. Defense is +3 to cost level, so to increase it from 6 to 7 costs 3 stones. He later finds he has stones left over and decides to increase his defense some more. Every MN increase is now 5 stones per MN, because he has exceeded cost level 10. Your way would have him paying 6 stones to increase his Mental Defense from 6 to 7, and 15 stones to increase his Defense from 6 to 7. But if he was smart and decided to seperate his 6 defense into 3 toughness and 3 reflexive dodge, he would only have to pay 6 stones to increase one or the other by 1 but he would still gain 1 Defense. I apologize if I failed to give a reason why I didn't like the idea, it's only because I thought I already did. Your system is too expensive and still encourages stacking. My way of doing it is cheaper for sure, but we're talking about 40 stone characters and my method still keeps things at least as expensive as buy a lot of Reflexive Dodge or Toughness was before and doesn't allow for cost-effective stacking.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 18, 2009 10:06:31 GMT -5
Did you read my last two posts before posting that... Besides us disagreeing on Defense being 1 or 2 stats, we're basically agreeing on everything else apparantly.
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Post by Neros on Mar 18, 2009 10:40:30 GMT -5
Its complex compared to the first versions of passive defense and what we could do..
And what if you're character is weak? I mean really weak like 0 in defense weak? A good old powerful mentalist with a weak body but a powerful mind? Maybe it might even be a small child or a small person.. These characters can appear.. Or atleast characters which might not have one or the other type of defense.. ================================ Theres still the: "Why buy it lower when you can gain more by just increasing it by one for nothing" thing..
Strength: 3 Durability: 2 This is 5, half of 5 is 2,5.. Rounding it down, thats Defense 2.. But if you just increased either Durability or Strength by one, you could get 3 in defense.. So offcourse you would do that.. I know i would and allot of my players would aswel..
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Post by malice on Mar 18, 2009 10:45:57 GMT -5
Did you read my last two posts before posting that... Besides us disagreeing on Defense being 1 or 2 stats, we're basically agreeing on everything else apparantly. Yeah I know, that's why I re-stated everything in my last two so that we could be clear about it. Communicating via text will never be the best way of doing things, however we work with what we have. So, let's talk about Toughness and Reflexive Dodge vs. Defense. I like having it as all one modifier because it eliminates cost advantages of stacking and keeps the maximum free defense available to players limited. In fact, without the Defense Matrix the maximum free defense you can gain is 10. Toughness and Reflexive Dodge would still exist, but you'd pick them out of your Defense modifier instead of paying for them seperately. That's my argument in a paragraph. Next I'll explain why I wanted to Average ALL scores. The Matrix can grant up to 20 free defense (10s in all physical scores, amazing stats but soooo expensive) so by it's nature it allows people to go above 10. Someone with all 5's, like Beast or Shathra, get's 10 defense for free. I have no complaint about the maximums that are possible, just about the minimums that are common. Based on how attacks are being done (Action + Generic Modifer), don't you think that's a little high? Remember the Defensive modifers are universally applied, so you don't need to buy one specific to each action like you do with attack actions. This is why I wanted to average ALL physical ability scores to get your free Defense. From that defense you pick whatever you want out of it. If you want Agility 3 but no Reflexive Dodge that's fine, designate all your Defense as Toughness like Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. Also, if it's free, it shouldn't be good. That's like a universal law . This cuts the maximum free defense possible down to 10 (60 stones worth of ability scores). That's not only fair but keeps free defense stones in the same level as free attack stones.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 18, 2009 19:13:20 GMT -5
How do you handle armor piercing? or protection from armor piercing? Multiplier numbers? AOE?
flesh it out a bit more and I think you have a good idea.
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Post by malice on Mar 18, 2009 19:45:32 GMT -5
This is the Armor Penetration 2.0 thread. It's cheaper than before at higher levels but more expensive at lower levels. Before in MURPG 1 the cheapest Armor Penetration could be was 1 and 2/3rds stones. The most expensive was 15
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Post by malice on Mar 22, 2009 3:17:57 GMT -5
Y'know what? Screw the averaging all scores idea for now. I like it a lot, I think it works beautifully, but having my way just isn't as important as getting the thing done.
Let's use the Defense Matrix we've been discussing:
(Str + Dur)/2 = Toughness (Agi + Spd)/2 = Reflexive Dodge Int = Mental Defense
...and focus on the debate about 1 or 2 defensive modifiers and the pricing for said modifier.
I think it should all count as one total modifier, and be priced as one. This is primarily just to discourage stacking. HOWEVER, my pricing idea below eliminates the need to give a damn about whether it's Toughness or Reflexive Dodge (and therefore the debate about 1 or 2 modifiers)
The pricing is tough. Everything I've seen so far is either too expensive, too cheap, or too complicated.
Why not just make it a flat rate? We're pricing it like any other modifier that you don't get for free, when in fact it's a modifier you get for free and then improve. It will be on a flat rate just like lines of experience. You always need 10 lines to improve something, so why not make it so improvements to your free defense are say... 3-4 stones per MN? Don't forget you're going to start out with free defense from the Matrix.
A graduated cost doesn't make sense anyway; your defense isn't going to help you on the D&R. It's stone for stone in combat, which is when defense comes into play. So why not charge a flat rate?
Let's pretend Defense costs 3 stones per MN, no matter the level. Check this out:
Toughness 10 in MURPG 1 costs 30 stones Toughness 10 with my current suggestion for 2.0 costs: (30 - [Current Toughness x 3) stones
Reflexive Dodge costs the same.
Reflexive Dodge 1 costs one fourth as much as Reflexive Dodge 4
Toughness 3 and Reflexive Dodge 3 costs 18 stones
Toughness 6 costs 18 stones
I would say Ouch, but remember you're getting probably that much from the Matrix
Yeah it hurts at lower amounts, but remember we're giving them the first few levels for free based on their abilities, so they're never paying for low levels unless their character has piss-poor ability scores (Usually characters with piss-poor ability scores are designed to be fragile anyway)
I've done the math and the comparison and the prices actually end up extremely close to the old system, with no possibility for stacking, and without the TERRIBLE side-by-side comparison to invulnerabilities (i.e. in MURPG 1 Invulnerabilities were 20 stones while Reflexive Dodge or Toughness 10 were 30 w/o advantages).
I'm working on ways of doing "No AP" and "No 2x". Obviously they're harder to do with this method.
First idea for "No AP": Pay 3 stones (+1 cost level) and as many stones as the Material class of your Toughness costs (So if you're made out of adamantium and are there for a class 4 material, it's 8 stones)
Second idea for "No AP: Pay Material class's cost x3. So if you're made out of adamantium it costs 15 stones
This is my new favorite way of pricing the Defensive modifiers. I may still have some problems with the sheer amount of free defense granted by the Matrix, but I feel like a flat rate is a solid way of pricing additional defense on top of free defense.
I'm also feeling more and more like we should make toughness act as/count as a modifier that reduces damage rather than prevent it, potentially to 0 damage. As far as AP is concerned it could still work as it does with Toughness, and suddenly the options to eliminate damage multipliers would not only improve but would make more sense.
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Post by Neros on Mar 24, 2009 2:37:48 GMT -5
Hmm... That was a brain hurter.. Ill try and give a respond about my thoughts:
1. Won't using the Defense Matrix AND Toughness and Reflexive Dodge result in rather high defenses really fast?
2. If Defense gets a flat cost, shouldent attacks then have a flat cost aswel? Otherwise, defense becomes even harder to overcome since it will be cheaper than attacks..
3. Well, if you have "not Toughness" 5 and Toughness 5, you would essentially still have defense 10.. Like, you are attacked by a 10 stone attack, 5 of them gets through but the remaining 5 are nulified.. Yea, there might be damage multipliers, but few attacks has that besides guns (if they still have 2xDamage)..
Im also still having problems with the halving in the Defense Matrix.. As I've said a couple times, why buy it one lower when you gain so much more by increasing it by one? Allot of players would want to do this.. And getting Str: 4, Dur: 3 will give you Defense 3, and Str: 3 and Dur: 3 also gives you defense 3.. And as said, what if you don't want either "toughness" or reflexive dodge? Or maybe even both?
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Post by Dionon on Mar 24, 2009 10:43:03 GMT -5
All these reasons that have been mentioned above people... Is why I am an advocate of the Defense Matrix+. Now... I've detailed out the Defense Matrix+ It's the system where yes, you CAN get a total Defense of 20, but it's going to cost you an arm and a leg to do so.
Why do I advocate this system you ask? Because it's possible, with the right amount of stone expenditure, to put out 20 stones of offense, and 9 times out of 10, it'll be cheaper to put out the 20 stones of offense, then it will be to put out the 20 stones of defense.
With the +2 Generic Modifier, and Ability Bonuses included in attacks, how hard is it to overcome 20 stones of defense? Not hard at all... All you need is a Generic Modifier of 6, an Action Number of 6, and an Ability of 8... That's 22 Character Creation Stones to overcome the best Static Defense in the game... All the time. Add in 2 more stones, and you can do it for much less stone expendature. (Efficient would make that 14 stones you'd have to put out go down to 10 stones)
So while we're all thinking how horrible Defense is... just remember how easy it is to overcome by anyone that wants to.
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Post by malice on Mar 24, 2009 11:33:04 GMT -5
I've also been approaching this from a different perspective than everyone else. Imo, Toughness and Reflexive Dodge were too expensive in MURPG 1. Their prices were never too low. The problem was that they were different modifiers and could be discounted seperately, which made stacking extremely efficient. A flat cost decreases the cost of REALLY HIGH Toughness or Reflexive Dodge, increases the cost of LOW Toughness or Reflexive Dodge, and eliminates any cost benefits of stacking the two. The flat cost does NOT make Defense cheaper than attacks. Why not? Because we're going to make sure it doesn't, simple as that. We have control over how much it costs. I just used 3 stones per/MN as an example (Although I think it's a pretty good start, 4 might be better) Also, Defense at a flat cost makes sense because Defense doesn't gain benefits on the D&R chart. Attacks DO, if only occasionally. Furthermore if we're using the Matrix than EVERYONE will have at least 2 defense, so attacks should be cheaper at levels that won't overcome that (Hence the graduated cost on attacks, and the flat cost on defense). Dionon addressed a lot of everything else pretty well. I was kinda hoping for more opinions on the flat cost idea, but it appears I explained it poorly, yet again
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Post by Dionon on Mar 24, 2009 11:51:30 GMT -5
Well... let me get this straight....
Basically you're saying that to pay for Toughness or Reflexive Dodge above what the Defense Matrix gives you, we should pay 3 stones per modifier. *nods* I do like that. It does make things even, and it's just like buying it at any AN above 7 anyway...
And it evens out everything, and yes, we're giving at least the first level of both free, so why shouldn't they pay a little more to improve...
/voted for.
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Post by malice on Mar 24, 2009 23:16:44 GMT -5
Cool. I was almost as thrilled someone read and understood my idea as I was that someone agreed with it. I'd like Neros's input, and then I think I'll create a poll. Or should I instead just leave it in everyone else's hands? If you guys have formed an executive committee of sorts then perhaps my usefulness has seen its end on the subject of defense. If this is the case, I'm totally cool with letting someone else do the rest of the work
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