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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 10:12:00 GMT -5
At some point in this thread someone turned their Pragmatism off.
Sue Storm has the following advantage on her Force Field: Overstrain (Each stone exceeding her action number comes out of her health. 1w=3r)... or something similar
No matter whether she's the iconic Force Field user or not, that's no reason to stick everyone else with the crappy consequences she chose at character creation or gained later with lines. So screw that argument, it's garbage. There's tons of Force Field users that don't have that problem. SUE is unique and different, not everyone else.
Seriously, throwing up a defensive action so you take STUN damage of normal damage SUCKS people! Screw that, just assign stones of defense from another action. The double defense is NOT worth it because if you're going to lose the energy anyway, you may as well spend it on defense and lose less.
How did you even get that far without realizing how awful that action is?
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 11:32:49 GMT -5
I know I'm jumping into this pretty late (I've been away a while) but I've been rethinking the Sue Storm-style force field. I'm considering running it this way:
- FF stones shifted to defense grant 1:1 defense. In other words, 7 stones of Force Field will get you 7 defense. I know that sounds like crap, but read on.
- Any damage you might sustain instead comes out of your energy reserve, with one caveat: the maximum damage your FF can sustain is equal to x2 your AN. In other words, if Hellion has FF 5, he can put up to 5 stones in Defense. Let's say he allocates 4 stones. If he's hit for 6 damage, he loses 2 energy, but takes no damage. IF he's hit for 11 stones, his FF blocks 10 stones worth (and he loses an extra 6 energy) and he takes the remaining 1 stone of damage. Players will always have the option of taking some or all of the damage instead of losing energy.
- I still suggest the mechanic from my FF 2.1: you can announce that you're offering protection by expanding your Area. Any ally within that Area can give up attacks in exchange for the free defense. Area 2 for free.
- FFs should count against attacks vs Abilities, so long as the medium of attack is physical in nature. An ice blast that does stun vs. Durability should be blocked by a FF, for example. On the other hand, Fear (attack vs Int) would not be.
- I'm considering ruling that any damage that passes through a force field is considered "soft" (another proposed rule whereby "soft" attacks round DOWN to the nearest white stone of health, not up). In most cases, though, this amounts to FFs soaking up an extra 2 damage. Seems sorta stupid in practice, hence why I'm not making it a solid rule yet.
- This type of FF should be relatively inexpensive. AN +1 or +2.
If Force Field is set up this way, I don't see the energy damage rule as a bad thing. It's actually a good thing: in most situations, it's preferable to spend some energy instead of taking damage. If 7 red get past your Defense, you'd probably rather lose 7 energy than 3 white. Yes, it's energy intensive, but keeps you very safe.
The 1:1 defense stones keeps FF from being the best defense out there. Instead, the Action focuses on the ability to grant free defense to allies.
Compared to Reflexive Dodge and Toughness: Pros: - it's cheaper to buy than defensive modifiers - isn't negated by area of effect (unlike Ref. Dodge) - isn't negated by touch attacks (unlike Toughness) - can expand to cover allies Cons: - costs lots of energy to use - requires an action to use
Here's a sample combat situation:
Hellion is in a fight with a mind-controlled Beast. He doesn't want to harm the X-Man, but instead wants to buy some time while someone smarter than himself figures out how to undo the mind-control. Hellion has Durability 3, Recovery 5, and a Pool of 6 (30 stones max). He has Force Field at AN 5 and his New X-Men uniform gives him +1 defense.
Panel 1: Hellion puts only 1 stone into his Force Field. He bravely moves to interpose himself between Beast and the X-Mansion. In total he has only 2 defense. As the GM resolves the page, Hellion's player is informed that he was hit for 9 stones, 7 of which would count as damage. This would wipe out all 3 of his health stones, so he opts to haves his Force Field block it instead. This drains a further 7 stones from his energy pool, but he takes no damage.
Panel 2: Hellion spent 8 energy last panel, but he recovers 5. He has 27/30 energy. The GM says that four children from the Lower Class run onto the scene; Hellion is afraid they'll get hurt. He expands the Area of his FF to 2 (this is free) and moves so that his area covers the school children. He offers protection, and assumes the GM will let the students take it. He spends 1 stone into his Force Field again. This time, Beast attacks one of the school children for 7 stones. Hellion is forced to spend 6 more energy on his Force Field, but the child is protected.. just barely.
Panel 3: Hellion spent 7 stones last panel, and recovers 5. He has 25/30 energy - he's slowly starting to tire. The GM says that a mind-controlled Wolverine runs onto the battlefield too - now Hellion is up against two opponents! The children huddle behind him, still seeking protection, so he'd better not screw up. This time he assigns 5 stones to Force Field, and maintains his Area of 2. Beast hits him for 7 stones again, and he easily blocks that (this costs 2 energy). But Wolverine hits him for 13! The most his Force Field can block is 10 stones, plus he has one stone of defense from his uniform. Hellion decides he has to take 1 white of damage, but to conserve energy he only raises his Force Field to 9 stones (leaving exactly 3 white leftover).
Panel 4: In total Hellion spent 5 energy on his base Force Field, 2 to block Beast, and 4 to block Wolverine. That leaves him at 19/30 energy. He's starting to tire now (but so is Beast) and he's down one third of his health. How much longer can he keep this up? In this panel he'll probably blast Wolverine away with his Telekinesis (Wolvie can handle it) and let Beast tire himself out on the Force Field to a stalemate. Hopefully someone will solve this problem before he runs out of energy!
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 11:38:58 GMT -5
That's closer to useful. It was a bit confusing that it takes into account both your AN and how many stones you spent, but I think the fact that your Force Fields are always the same power is also interesting.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 11:54:50 GMT -5
It needs tinkering, as there are known limitations. For starters, in the given example, Hellion is actually using his +1 defense uniform to absorb damage in every panel. That means in theory that his force fields are being penetrated every panel, but his armor is JUST ENOUGH to keep him safe. That seems silly. But maybe its best not to think about it too hard. lol
I know its confusing and its a lot to read, but I think it might work out. WK has been concerned about the idea of FFs always being the best defense, and that concern sort of infected me somewhere along the way. So, I thought about it a lot, and some semi-solutions came to me between bouts of cone vomiting. It's weird how much stuff I come up with while I'm asleep or close to it.
Another limitation is that this Force Field will not hold up against multiple attackers, since you have to pay for each source of damage individually. Still, it's often better than taking damage.
This FF should come with the caveat that you might want to buy a fat, juicy energy pool. I picture Sue Storm with a very high AN (9 or 10?), a moderate recovery (4?), but a decent pool (maybe 6). She could hold off a ~20 stone attack if she had to, but she wouldn't have to commit to spending that much energy unless she needed to (in most cases, just 1 stone is enough!). Thus, she can keep her FF up all day long if she wants, but being punched by the Hulk is going to rapidly turn her brain into jelly.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 11:59:49 GMT -5
The way defense works now makes it seem like Force Fields are always being penetrated, but to make it into something more layered ends up complicating what was originally designed to be simple even with flaws considered. I don't have a problem with either route, since a layered defense is more house rule territory anyway.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 12:03:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I keep coming back to "don't think about it too much", which is turning into my new mantra (move over, KISS!). ^__^
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:43:35 GMT -5
Wait... so TWF repeats what I said, and gets a "That's useful" from you... and I'm left out in the flipping cold?
*noise of disgust*
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 13:47:23 GMT -5
Lol, if you already said it than I apologize. I actually read the thread pretty far, and thought I had processed most the ideas, but I guess not. I get confused after reading 20 or so posts and end up skimming some by accident.
And for the record I said "That's closer to useful" not "that's useful"
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 13:53:07 GMT -5
Dio, I only remember your original example: Sue Storm puts 3 stones in Force Field. She's hit by Doom for 5 damage and so she loses 5 extra energy. In total she spends 8 energy to block 5 damage.
Also, my proposal does away with the x2 defense option. That was really clogging our system up.
If you amended those issues at some point in here, I'm sorry for missing them. Sometimes it helps to post the complete package all in one post, with a big example so that people clearly understand the idea.
But yes, in general, I've come around to agreeing with you and WK on principle. I think this will work.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:54:00 GMT -5
lol, that's ok, but TWF is literally running my system for the most part.. I just added a few things to make it more customizable. You know, x2 Defense, Two different types of force fields (One that can be attacked through, one that can't be), and the ability to be immune to the Energy Drain...
I always wondered why people said +4 was too much for the Energy Drain part....
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 13:59:51 GMT -5
I never actually assumed that anyone was presenting wholly original ideas this late in the thread. Everyone's "ideas", if decent, will account for the concerns of others and probably include aspects from previous suggestions by previous contributers.
You don't see "Gary wuz here" or "Jimbo wrote thiz part" anywhere in the Core books because the authors aren't accredited for each of their small contributions. It's a collaborative whole and most of the aspects of the book probably saw several pairs of eyes and typing hands before the books were published. You make suggestions and then everyone else rips them to shreds to edit and refine them, then you do the same to their suggestions.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 13:59:56 GMT -5
I think enabling x2 defense, even as an option, will break the Action. At some point it will become not only the best defense in the game, but nigh impenetrable, and that's no fun. I think it will work well enough with 1:1 defense and the energy damage (I hate the word "stun") as standard. I'll try it, anyway.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 14:08:03 GMT -5
Haha, That's not what I meant...
I'll explain in Alagory...
Gary says "Hey guys... let's play Street Fighter 4, it's an awesome game!"
Everyone says "No.. that's stupid, and you're stupid for saying it"
Jimbo says "I know... Let's play Street Fighter 4, it'll kill time"
Everyone else "Yea! Best idea Evar!"
Gary "Doh!"
That's what I meant.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:21:11 GMT -5
Dude, that isn't what happened. For starters, I said at the very beginning of my post that I changed my mind. Secondly, what I propose FIXES the problems I and other people had with what you proposed.
It's more like you suggested we play Street Fighter 4 on X-Box when we don't own an X-Box. Then, like a week later, it hit me that it's available on PC. Same basic suggestion, but in a way that works.
Assuming it actually works, I'll have to test it. lol Stuff I come up with in my sleep (or while vomiting, in this case) tends to have some kind of gaping logic hole in it.
~TWF
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 14:21:34 GMT -5
Actually, TWF, I think that this Force Field you presented is pretty good... It also closely mirrors what we can see in comics. It's not only Sue Storm that 'tires' when her constructs take damage, but many more force field users, for example our famous telekinetics. This way won't probably work for Armor though. But I think it's a good idea and I'd love to try it out during the tests if I could.
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