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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:32:03 GMT -5
Yeah, the trick with Armor (the character, Hisako Ichiki) is that we haven't seen her in enough stuff (at least I haven't). I've never seen her armor penetrated, though she does seem to get kicked around a little, even with her FF up.
She'd still be scary if she bought Force Field ~5 with Unlimited Power (a new Advantage that basically supplies free stones up to AN), but limited to personal effect only. It would be more more expensive than an equivalent amount of Toughness, but she'd have the advantage of avoiding touch attacks and armor penetration (though I'd also give her the "class 3 material" disadvantage). She'd have 5 defense most of the time, but would be able to soak up up to 5 more by losing energy. That's decent. Any additional defense can come from shifted stones like everyone else.
The other option is to just give Hisako a modifier. There are lots of ways to explain it, depending on the player's interpretation of what they've seen in the actual comics.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 14:35:40 GMT -5
Dude, that isn't what happened. For starters, I said at the very beginning of my post that I changed my mind. Secondly, what I propose FIXES the problems I and other people had with what you proposed. It's more like you suggested we play Street Fighter 4 on X-Box when we don't own an X-Box. Then, like a week later, it hit me that it's available on PC. Same basic suggestion, but in a way that works. Assuming it actually works, I'll have to test it. lol Stuff I come up with in my sleep (or while vomiting, in this case) tends to have some kind of gaping logic hole in it. ~TWF I know, I just love comedy for it's own sake... Don't worry, I'm not actually angry, and I know you said you'd changed your mind... I just think you should include a few of my other ideas as well.. Like the Liquid and Solid force fields (You know, Liquid can be attacked through, Solid can't be... Solid gives you Level 4 Material Protection, the other gives you Level 2 Material Protection) That should be part of Force Field creation.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:41:32 GMT -5
I've never really seen anyone attack through their own force field in a literal sense, though. So I'm not sure what that's duplicating. The best I can think of is those droids in Phantom Menace (which is hard to remember as I opened up my own skull and stabbed the part of my brain that remembers that movie with a spork).
As long as defense is 1:1, I don't think we have to worry about whether or not you can attack and use your FF at the same time. I still argue that FFs don't have to be up for the whole 30 second page in order to benefit from them - in the same way that someone who shifts a stone of Close Combat to defense doesn't have to sit all page with their hands in front of their face in a defensive posture.
~TWF
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 14:41:38 GMT -5
Yeah, the trick with Armor (the character, Hisako Ichiki) is that we haven't seen her in enough stuff (at least I haven't). I've never seen her armor penetrated, though she does seem to get kicked around a little, even with her FF up. She'd still be scary if she bought Force Field ~5 with Unlimited Power (a new Advantage that basically supplies free stones up to AN), but limited to personal effect only. It would be more more expensive than an equivalent amount of Toughness, but she'd have the advantage of avoiding touch attacks and armor penetration (though I'd also give her the "class 3 material" disadvantage). She'd have 5 defense most of the time, but would be able to soak up up to 5 more by losing energy. That's decent. Any additional defense can come from shifted stones like everyone else. The other option is to just give Hisako a modifier. There are lots of ways to explain it, depending on the player's interpretation of what they've seen in the actual comics. ~TWF Then, I fully agree. I remember Hisako and Logan talking that he could penetrate it with his claws, so you're right about that Class 3 Material... because as I read, adamantium is Class 4 Material and so would penetrate through it effortlessly. And you're right about that she is able to withstand blows of VERY powerful opponents, but at the same time, she does tire out quickly and then gets blowed away and knocked out... hey, I just realised that it's a perfect action for her, even though I didn't think so just a couple of minutes ago!
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:45:55 GMT -5
Yeah, in particular I think it's fair in the case of Class 3 materials to rule that a weapon is too short to actually hit the person behind the force field. Hisako seems to be basically immune to Wolverine's claws, (since they aren't long enough to actually cut her) but she has to watch out for adamantium bullets, or the like. Makes for a very interesting challenge!
Likewise, Hellion's FF was penetrated by special Purifier bullets. They seem to have studied his powers somehow and figured out the weakness. *shrug*
~TWF
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 14:50:53 GMT -5
But, if Wolverine's claws can cut through her force field like a ot knife through a butter (well, I can't remember how exactly he said that, but... the meaning was the same), then he would hurt her, because... well, he would basicly penetrate her force field, break into it and then hurt her inside of it, right? At least, that's how I see it.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:54:30 GMT -5
The way it was shown, Wolverine's claws cut through her force field like it wasn't even there, but his fist (which is made out of meat) was repelled. Thus, if the distance between her body and the edge of her forcefield is WIDER than the length of Logan's claws, Armor is safe. His claws won't reach her body. His claws don't seem to leave any marks on her armor, so he isn't able to "hack away" at it to make a hole or anything like that. It's an interesting dynamic. ~TWF
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 14:59:44 GMT -5
Hm... now, that's interesting. I thought that he would be able to, as you called it, 'hack away' at it. Then, I agree with it. Still, one thing crossed my mind. I know we don't want to include the 2xdefence option, but I was thinking about it... Perhaps for a great raise in cost, we could make an option that would let you negate damage that was higher than your Defense not for one 1:1 basis (as it's now), but for 1:2. This way it'd be much more effective.
Hm, more I think of it, I see that it'd make putting many stones into it pointless, because it doesn't give high defence, but enable you to negate them cheaper. So it's better to put 1 stone into it and then negate the rest of damage through this option... Now I know, it's not a good idea.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 15:01:35 GMT -5
Well, if you were up against 3 or more opponents, all attacking you, it would probably still be beneficial to put stones in your box. But yeah, that's the same roadblock I came up against. I thought of that too. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 15:06:33 GMT -5
Hm... you're right, but still, through it we're creating a hole in a system right from the start. But at the same time, the force field is going to tire the user very, very quickly when he starts fighting with more than one (at best two) character(s), because their attacks can totally suck all of his energy very, very rapidly. And I'm not talking about some thugs - for them, the 'true' defence should be enough, but for more dangerous, super-powered opponents, it could be too easy to break through the Force Field user's reserve. But maybe that's jus the way it should be. After all, the more attackers, the merrier...erm, the more it hurts, aye?
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 15:08:56 GMT -5
That's kinda how it works in Marvel though... Unless they're Goons...
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Post by alanee on Mar 2, 2009 15:12:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I know... just stating that it'd tire out the user quicker than it would in the first edition... but wait, we're enlarging the Energy, right? Hm, I guess I was wrong After thinking about this, I can say that FF as it is right now is pretty good and doesn't really need any changes... or that would come in the test game. Hm, talking about it, how does Create Constructs option work for this version of FF?
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 16:23:03 GMT -5
I thought about it that way, too: A FF user against multiple opponents is going to get tired very quickly. But the alternative is that they're going to DIE very quickly.
What I mean is, imagine Hellion has maxed out his FF at 5 stones, and he's taking fire from 10 different opponents, all of which are hitting him for 6 damage. He's going to lose 1 energy from each opponent, for a total of 10 energy. Ouch! However, what if he had just shifted 5 stones of Close Combat? He'd be taking 10 white instead.
So in the end, it comes down to preference: Tired, or KO? I'll take tired, thanks.
EDIT: As for Constructs, I think they'll work pretty much the same way as before. Attacking them will just use the "new" system for resolving damage: they withstand damage equal to stones invested on their own, and any damage can either come out of the user's pool, or destroy the construct. Weight supported can remain the same as before.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 16:47:24 GMT -5
What are these "constructs" you speak of? I think I have a general idea what you mean, but how does it work in stones?
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 17:39:49 GMT -5
By "construct" I just mean an object made out of force. I've seen characters make stairs, platforms, bridges, walls and other stuff out of force fields. I intend for it to be a +1 option.
Basically, stones of effect would determine the construct's size (area up to 2 is free). It would be able to support weight equal to stones spent on the D&R chart.
Complex constructs with moving parts are pretty much out of the question. Constructs should also be largely immobile (though maybe in conjunction with Telekinesis they can be moved). I've seen Hellion support people on a flat disc of force; Xavin in Runaways made a bubble that floated on water with a few people inside (who had to scramble around in it like a hamster ball, ha ha).
~TWF
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