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Post by Neros on Feb 21, 2009 16:48:05 GMT -5
Oh, you mean like reflexive dodge.... Well, having a wind barrier could work as a type of dodge, but i can't see how a force field of wind or gravity would be negated by area effect..
And as I understood it, it worked like this Dodge --> Negated by Area Attacks, falls, and when you are sleeping (and as far as I recal, when you are suprised) Armor --> Negated by armor penetration and touch (if skin contact is not needed)
AndI would say that if you want AP for something, you need to follow the rest of the rules.. No going around them.. But thanks to it, something like Microwave energy could have a rather high AP compared to something like light (why does this have AP again?)
But I also agree that the splitting up Masteries sound interesting.. But i want to test it before I really can judge it.. Another thing this would do, is if we had a Fire Master and a fire master, one could be and expert at manipulating fire while another could be and expert at using it as a blast..
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Post by malice on Feb 21, 2009 17:25:00 GMT -5
Oh, you mean like reflexive dodge.... Well, having a wind barrier could work as a type of dodge, but i can't see how a force field of wind or gravity would be negated by area effect.. And as I understood it, it worked like this Dodge --> Negated by Area Attacks, falls, and when you are sleeping (and as far as I recal, when you are suprised) Armor --> Negated by armor penetration and touch (if skin contact is not needed) AndI would say that if you want AP for something, you need to follow the rest of the rules.. No going around them.. But thanks to it, something like Microwave energy could have a rather high AP compared to something like light (why does this have AP again?) But I also agree that the splitting up Masteries sound interesting.. But i want to test it before I really can judge it.. Another thing this would do, is if we had a Fire Master and a fire master, one could be and expert at manipulating fire while another could be and expert at using it as a blast.. Actually wind's defense bonus is supposed to be dodge. I'll edit that ASAP. I was pretty sloppy with a lot of the stuff because I actually had the post mostly done when Internet Explorer disconnected and I lost it all, so what you're actually seeing is a second draft written in frustration. I also had a premonition no one would like the ideas, and was a little bitter with myself as I wrote it. Thankfully they weren't badly received. The reason wind is negated by area attacks is twofold: Gusts of wind, even when extremely powerful, are generally not strong enough to force area attacks to completely shift or stop. Also by putting a defense type on these free defenses you decrease their power, so it's a game-balance and pricing issue. Wind isn't an extraordinarily powerful element, so its power is according to its price. Gravity's field is the way it is because it pushes attacks away from the Master. If the character is surrounded by an attack I assume the Master must allocate stones to properly defend against it. Microwaves don't so much pierce armor as ignore it entirely. Essentially you're hitting the target with harmful radiation, which they can't defend against without specific and specialized materials. Microwaves might actually technically make armor work AGAINST you, but that's real-life science and I have no interest in trying to incorporate that aspect into MURPG (At least not for the Microwaves Mastery Force Blast. Might be cool with more thought though, I'm still interested in Agent Zero's anti-healing factor) Light as an AP option because the master can focus the blast into a laser beam. The focused light is very powerful, but to be so focused makes the shot very narrow and small. Kinda like getting stabbed with a 5 foot sewing needle that's no fatter than a 3 inch sewing needle. TWF: I assume the original prices for options. That leaves "Force Blasts" at +1 and "Free Force Field" at +2. I see nothing wrong with a Master getting 2x defense from their Mastery if they allocate to defense while also having the "Free Force Field" option because it says "Free". This would allow a Master of Cosmic Energy to shift all the stones in their action to defense and get up to 3x their AN in a Force Field. Again, if they're shifting stones to defense, then they should get more stones of defense. It's not too powerful, it's getting what you pay for. If a person pays +13 to cost level they can get a cosmic power action. Is the action overpowered compared to most others? Of course it is, they paid for it to be. If I buy a Force Blast with 3x damage and go head to head with someone who has identical stats to mine except no 3x damage, I should win. Most of the pre-built Force Fields I list don't give the character 2x their AN or even 2x the stones they spend in the action towards defense. When they do it's either because the Mastery is of extraordinary power and scope or because the defense bonus can be negated by appropriate attacks (which was never the case before). I'm happy to keep working on this and discussing it, I'm just pleased my post getting as least a lukewarm reception.
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Post by Neros on Feb 22, 2009 7:28:56 GMT -5
The reason wind is negated by area attacks is twofold: Gusts of wind, even when extremely powerful, are generally not strong enough to force area attacks to completely shift or stop. Thats abit wierd considering how the system works.. If the attack dont overcome the defense, then the attack isent stronger than the barrier.. Even if its made of stone, wood, light or icecream.. If a fire master released an area attack of 5 and there where a wind master who has wind barrier of 7, then how would that overcome his defense since he is surrounded by it and is clearly stronger than his blast? Also, compared to some of the other powers wind is the least powerful (okay, water might take the price).. But normal damage and push back.. Other things get ignite, entangle, 2x Damage, Armor penetration.. The same goes for gravity, it surrounds you, so why can't it protect from all angles? Light as an AP option because the master can focus the blast into a laser beam. The focused light is very powerful, but to be so focused makes the shot very narrow and small. Kinda like getting stabbed with a 5 foot sewing needle that's no fatter than a 3 inch sewing needle. Still cant see why it should gain AP.. So if its a laser, it should have AP?
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Post by Revan on Feb 22, 2009 11:07:57 GMT -5
I spent the last 3 hours reading this thread and here are my opinions of what you guys have come up with so far.
Malice: I like the work on the elemental force blasts and force fields. I think the water's force blast should have the knock back/collision damage, if not make it attack vs. agility to drown. If you have force blast, combined with the manipulate aspect, what's to stop you from bubbling the head of your target in water. The other thing I was thinking was to spend stones for effect when it comes to water. You can spend whatever the cost level increase in stones to gain that effect, ie. AoE, AP, attack vs ability to trap in a ball of water, etc. Also, damage from air doesn't exactly need to be based on collision, but pressure aka wind shear or wind blade. I don't think gravity force field should be defined/limited to stones of dodge as you put it. A fire with AoE, or explosion should easily be repelled by enough high level gravity, but by your definition, an AoE would completely nullify the force field.
Dionon: I like the ideas of breaking down the mastery action into sub actions. It allow for a higher level of customization. It's like what happens when Iceman meets Blizzard, or Torch meeting up with Sunfire, Sunspot, and Pyro. All of them pretty much have a mastery over the same element, but have different strength's, weaknesses, and uses. It also fixes part of the problem of rapid increase with lines by fixing it so that say 10 LoE will only increase 1 subset in the mastery.
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Post by Neros on Feb 22, 2009 12:42:17 GMT -5
Vs Agility? I belive Durability was used for determining drowning..
And Revan, you just made me think of something that might umf up the cost for masteries.. Allot of tiimes, masters will be immune to their element.. Since its a part for itself now, it will become rather expensive since invulnrabilities can rain from 5w to 24..
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Post by malice on Feb 22, 2009 14:17:43 GMT -5
Don't forget that different elements excel in different areas. The same option for several different elements is NOT equal in power amongst all of them. Some masteries gain more power from certain options than others do. (Gravity and Air are great Masteries for Flight, Fire and Earth are good combat masteries). Sometimes the best way to hurt people with your Mastery is NOT a Force Blast and the best way to defend yourself with your Mastery is NOT the free Force Field option. People still buy the Force Blast because it's a generic basic attack that they can always count on. People buy the Force Field because it's FREE anytime they have stones in their Mastery. If a player buys a Mastery of Air and then complains that his Mastery doesn't have as harmful a Force Blast as Fire or Gravity, then the problem is with the player not the Mastery. They clearly want to be more offensive than is ideal with the Mastery they purchased. You buy a Mastery of an element for the thematic synergy of certain powers and abilities, not for a Force Blast. I knew all this when I typed out the list, but I STILL tried to balance the things in power. However, there's only so much you can fudge how an element works for game balance before it starts looking silly. Sometimes you just aren't getting a lot of certain options, and sometimes you'd be stupid not to take certain options with certain elements (As I've said I think both Gravity and Air Masters should spend some stones developing the flight potential) If a fire master released an area attack of 5 and there where a wind master who has wind barrier of 7, then how would that overcome his defense since he is surrounded by it and is clearly stronger than his blast? The 5 overcoming the 7 doesn't bother me because the Master of Fire bought Area attck (+3 levels, +4 in 2.0 I think) As for wind being the "weakest", I don't think it is. It just gains more power from options other than Force Blast and Force Field (I give Masters of Air double the discount on Flight, and they can make others fly more easily) If people want to make it so Gravity's free Force Field is Force Field defense instead of Dodge, that's fine. My suggestions are far from perfect and could use such edits. You also mentioned an "earth spike" for the Earth Force Blast. I don't see any problem with that, but if I were the player with the Mastery of Earth my default Force Blast would be a projectile so that I could still hit people who were flying or otherwise less vulnerable to my powers of Earth manipulation. (ESPECIALLY considering the first thing I do when I encounter someone with earth-themed powers is get the hell off the ground) You are definitely on the right track though, when I read "Force Blast" for Masteries I do NOT think "How can I hit this guy with a ray, projectile, line, or cone attack?" I think "How would a Master of this element manifest the most destructive basic attack their element can offer?" Still cant see why it should gain AP.. So if its a laser, it should have AP? *shrug* if you don't want it to have AP and enough people think it having AP is a bad idea, it won't. Light is one of the Masteries that gets "Extraordinary power or scope" imo though. Remember also I have two seperate suggestions for dealing with the "Extraordinary power or scope" pricing. Either it's done as it is now (The simple way) or you charge no more for the basic Mastery but increase the price of certain options that are particularly powerful with certain elements.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 22, 2009 17:26:51 GMT -5
So... keeping things simple is just out of the question, I guess.
On the very first page of this thread, we had two simple, concise, and very workable ideas.
Now we have arguments over whether Light should automatically be Armor Penetrating. *sigh*
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Post by malice on Feb 22, 2009 18:09:15 GMT -5
So... keeping things simple is just out of the question, I guess. On the very first page of this thread, we had two simple, concise, and very workable ideas. Now we have arguments over whether Light should automatically be Armor Penetrating. *sigh* Complications for us do not automatically translate to complications for the users of the system. If we decide to do pre-determined effects on certain options of the Mastery then YES it's going to get complicated for US to figure it out so that it's NOT complicated for the player buying the Mastery. Making MURPG 2.0 is already a complex and fugly process, it's going to get uglier and harder to do too, but all of that is going to happen so it's NOT complex and difficult to use. Complex invention begets simplistic use. Also, while I value simplicity and think it's part of the heart of MURPG, sometimes simplicity just doesn't cut it, as crazy as that sounds. Even crazier is the idea that some of us are fascinated by complexity and don't mind working with it to save the players the trouble. (Such people as are fascinated by complexity also tend to be very good at understanding and designing systems. They also make really good characters because it gives them endorfins to do so and get called power-gamers and munchkins without ever having an ill intention) So sigh all you like, you're the only one who can hear it.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 22, 2009 18:36:29 GMT -5
That's as may be, but I bet I'm not the only one who thinks you're dead wrong here.
Sorry, but NOTHING should be "automatic" with Masteries, that way we eliminate the need to guess at what qualifies as "extraordinary scope."
Making one's Force Blast automatically Armor Penetrating just because you happen to think it makes sense is... well, ridiculous.
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Post by malice on Feb 22, 2009 18:48:49 GMT -5
That's as may be, but I bet I'm not the only one who thinks you're dead wrong here. Sorry, but NOTHING should be "automatic" with Masteries, that way we eliminate the need to guess at what qualifies as "extraordinary scope." Extraordinary scope takes very little guessing in the original MURPG. Either you look at the options presented or you let the player design them, and then you decide whether you think those designs are extra powerful. Making one's Force Blast automatically Armor Penetrating just because you happen to think it makes sense is... well, ridiculous. ...which is a point I already conceded to Neros. Automatic AP doesn't even exist if we use the Material class system, so it can't be granted. What we ended up discussing was whether or not AP should be discounted for certain force blasts, and which force blasts would then get that discount. I also have been explaining my original thoughts when I made the post, since obviously my post isn't crystal clear (I guess that's the price of posting at 6am ) I originally included AP in places because I felt it fit and I'm barely familiar at all with alot of the intended MURPG 2.0 rules so I still speak the language of MURPG 1.0
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 22, 2009 18:59:46 GMT -5
Right, it does make you do some guessing in MURPG 1... and I'm all for getting rid of that, entirely.
If everything works on the same level initially, and more powerful options are purchased, then theres no need for any guessing about what is extraodrinary scope.
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Post by malice on Feb 22, 2009 19:05:29 GMT -5
I don't actually like the extraordinary scope method either, especially because it makes certain Masteries stupidly expensive before ever getting any options that would take advantage of that power. I'm just wary of replacing it with a system that doesn't synergize costs carefully.
With the previous system you spend most of your stones on your Mastery or you had a pretty lousy character. If in this new system you're buy a bunch of different actions and modifiers with similar themes and calling them a mastery, you might end up spending most of your stones on your Mastery AND have a pretty lousy character.
Of course now we're getting into questions of pricing, which reminds me to check the Action splitting/combining/creating thread.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 22, 2009 19:30:32 GMT -5
Well, I'm not actually a huge fan of "de-packaging" Masteries either. But thats a separate topic.
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Post by malice on Feb 22, 2009 19:40:17 GMT -5
Even if you don't "de-package" them you're talking about making players buy what their Mastery does, right?
Well then they need discounted advantages and options, just like they had before or else their action isn't affordable.
So do they get discounts that are easy to abuse or pre-builts?
Note: I haven't picked a preference
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 22, 2009 19:52:59 GMT -5
Per my original post... I believe in pre-built options with everything else requiring the player to pay. For instance, I have no problem with a Force Blast being a Mastery option at +1, even with a built-in option that a normal Force Blast doesn't have.
BUT I have a major problem with those Force Blasts having potential options ranging from simple X2 damage or Area Affect to nonsense like "Area Attack Vs. Durability" which is CLEARLY very superior.
In other words, I think that there should be some amount of discount based on the fact that you're buying a package, but I don't want it to be nearly so big a discount, nor do I want it to be ambiguous.
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